Row vs. Wade

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Moriah, May 16, 2019.

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Should Row vs. Wade be Overturned?

  1. No, don't overturn Roe vs. Wade.

  2. Yes, Roe vs. Wade needs to be overturned.

  3. I don't care one way or the other.

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  1. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You are partly correct... Wealthy women, protected by the Wealthy Worshipping Right will have no problems, may not even have to travel to get an abortion.

    And some poor women will be burdened with another kid , more and more poor kids suffering through poverty, so Righties can scream at them and denigrate them for being poor

    But most women will have access to safe abortions....times have changed and there already are underground services for women to access

    ( The slaves ALSO had to use underground services to flee from their enslavers)
    .

    Which only highlights the FACT that Anti- abortion legislation does NOTHING TO END abortions but is ALL, and ONLY, about making women's lives harder and taking away their rights.
     
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  2. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    It takes away ALL our rights to plan our own families. It's the beginning of theocracy, an egregious intrusion into our lives that is based ENTIRELY on a MINORITY RELIGIOUS BELIEF.
     
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  3. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    Some of your arguments are good think pieces. More below, much of it debaters points as I am learning from you and appreciate your input.



    There are many parallels. For example, both are the government taking custody and control of your body. Both can have extreme physical unpleasantness and even death involved.



    I would be interested in any kind of citation allowing me to find this, thank you. I'll do some searching around myself too.



    Pro Life position is also protected by the 10th Amendment which is much more explicit about the dictates of law.


    The post quickening prohibition is evidence of the state trying to control the procedure. Until quickening may have been allowed as medicine back then may not have even been certain there was a pregnancy and a simple DNC was required. So, even if you believe in a “living Constitution” we have new technology that shows pregnancy earlier than quickening. Should RvW be over turned in light of new tech.?



    Again, 10th. If it’s not expressly prohibited to the states, it isn’t a Federal issue.



    Even Jeb! Told us the US has demographic problems requiring we bring in immigrants to replace us. The people of the US are not even replacing themselves. We are going extinct. Should we be allowing, and even funding further genocide?

    Socially, does the existence of this procedure coarsen attitudes about the value of life? Motherhood (is it now mundane choice, her problem)?



    Agreed. I can’t see how these new State Laws can survive if Roe is upheld, nor should they.



    Your thoughts on the hypothetical: someone murders a pregnant woman. Are there 2 murder charges?
     
  4. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Or we see ourselves as too fat..after all we’re so shallow and just decide to get a late abortion for the fun of it
     
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  5. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Huh??
     
  6. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    And while the underground railroad helped some slaves it made no significant impact on the number of slaves or the existance of slavery. Suggest you find a better analogy.

    And there are already areas where women do not currently have access to safe abortions unless theyhave the funds and money to travel a significant distance.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  7. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    Thanks @Sallyally
    How would you describe similar, equivalent or "different" arguments in Australia
    compared with Constitutional principles?
    Since Constitutional laws are based on Natural Laws that are supposed
    to be Universal about democratic process in general,
    what are the equivalent principles or processes where you are coming from?

    Thank you, this would be very educational and enriching.
    If these principles are not universal, that would show where America is different.
    If they ARE universal, we'd have an easier time enforcing them by teaching them that way!

    Please clarify in more detail, even if it isn't anything the same. That's even better to learn more!
     
  8. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    In order to end and prevent abortion @drluggit
    what are the most effective ways to address the causes and factors?

    Is banning it enough to stop the abuses causing it?
    What else is needed?
     
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    You are partly correct... Wealthy women, protected by the Wealthy Worshipping Right will have no problems, may not even have to travel to get an abortion.

    And some poor women will be burdened with another kid , more and more poor kids suffering through poverty, so Righties can scream at them and denigrate them for being poor

    But most women will have access to safe abortions....times have changed and there already are underground services for women to access

    ( The slaves ALSO had to use underground services to flee from their enslavers)
    .

    Which only highlights the FACT that Anti- abortion legislation does NOTHING TO END abortions but is ALL, and ONLY, about making women's lives harder and taking away their rights.



    .

    That does NOT refute one word of "" The slaves ALSO had to use underground services to flee from their enslavers""

    It is a statement of fact.



    I never said anything different.
    I posted : ""And some poor women will be burdened with another kid , more and more poor kids suffering through poverty"""

    Yes, that is currently the case for some women and Republicans want to make it worse.
     
  10. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    “The question of when, if ever, performing an abortion will be morally justified is one that endlessly consumes many philosophers, theologians, feminists, social scientists and legal commentators. It is also a question that a large number of Australian women address every day in a more applied sense: when they are making an actual decision about whether to continue an unplanned pregnancy. Like many other medical and moral decisions that people make, each woman's abortion decision is made in the context of complex-and sometimes conflicting-personal and societal values. These values influence and inform the decisions that individual women make about abortion, and these values are in turn influenced and informed by those decisions.

    Because different people have different views about which values are offended or affirmed when a woman chooses abortion, and because these views are sometimes irreconcilable and often very strongly held, the debate about the morality of abortion continues. As a consequence, so does the debate about the role that the law should play in this area.”
    https://www.aph.gov.au/about_parlia...s/parliamentary_library/pubs/rp/rp9899/99rp01

    Abortion in Australia is largely regulated by the states and territories rather than the Federal Government. The grounds on which abortion is permitted in Australia vary by jurisdiction. In every state, abortion is legal to protect the life and health of a woman, though each state has a different definition.

    Nowhere in Australia is there a requirement that a woman's sexual partner be notified of a proposed abortion or to consent to the procedure. Australian courts will not grant an injunction to restrain a pregnant woman from terminating her pregnancy, even if the applicant is the putative father of the fetus.[1] There is also no waiting period for an abortion. A minor does not need to notify a parent of a proposed abortion nor is parental consent required, except in Western Australia. In Western Australia, a proposed abortion by a minor under 16 years of age must be notified to one of the parents, except where permission has been granted by the Children's Court or the minor does not live with her parents.

    Early-term surgical abortions are generally available around Australia for those women who seek them. The procedure is partially funded under Medicare, the government-funded public health scheme, or by private healthcare insurers. Prosecutions against medical practitioners for performing abortions have not occurred for decades, with one exception – a prosecution in 1998 in Western Australia that soon after led to the explicit legalisation of on-request abortions under certain circumstances in that state. RU-486, an abortifacientwidely used overseas, has been available in Australia only since February 2006.

    In the case of 'a child capable of being born alive' (usually taken to mean after 28 weeks of pregnancy), a termination may be subject to a separate crime of child destruction in some States and Territories.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Australia


    Abortion is the subject of criminal law in all Australian states and territories, except the Australian Capital Territory. Each state and territory has legislation prohibiting unlawful abortion. Queensland, Victoria, South Australia, Western Australia, Tasmania and the Northern Territory have legislation in place that provides a statutory explanation of when an abortion is not unlawful. In the other states, common law interpretations of the Crimes Act or Criminal Code have had the effect of making lawful abortion available to a large number of women.

    Children by Choice believe abortion is an issue concerning women’s health and women’s rights, and any legislation covering the procedure should not be contained within a Criminal Code or Crimes Act.

    QLD | NSW | ACT | VIC | SA | TAS | WA | NT
    SUMMARY
    Queensland: On October 17 2018 the Termination of Pregnancy Bill was passed in parliament, decriminalising abortion. The new legislation came into effect in December 2018. Legal to 22 weeks. Legal post - 22 weeks with two doctors' approval. Exclusion zones are also set at 150m around termination clinics.

    New South Wales: Abortion a crime for women and doctors. Legal when doctor believes a woman’s physical and/or mental health is in serious danger. In NSW social, economic and medical factors maybe taken into account.

    Australian Capital Territory: Legal, must be provided by a medical professional which includes a nurse practitioner. Exclusion zones may be set at the discretion of the ACT Health Minister.

    Victoria: Legal to 24 weeks. Legal post-24 weeks with two doctors’ approval. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.

    South Australia: Legal if two doctors agree that a woman’s physical and/or mental health endangered by pregnancy, or for serious foetal abnormality. Unlawful abortion a crime.

    Tasmania: Legal to 16 weeks. Legal post-16 weeks with two doctors' approval. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.

    Western Australia: Legal to 20 weeks, some restrictions particularly for under 16s. Very restricted after 20 weeks.

    Northern Territory: Legal to 14 weeks with one doctor's approval, and at 14 - 23 weeks with an additional doctor. Not legal after 23 weeks unless it is performed to save a pregnant person's life. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.
    https://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/factsandfigures/australianabortionlawandpractice

    There’s plenty of information there. Stuff I wasn’t aware of such as that abortion is still the subject of criminal law!
     
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  11. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Lots of things. End government support for single mothers. Make cost effective birth control available. Incentivise marriage. Stop making folks choose between their jobs and their families by artificially making it a social crime to be married, and have a stable family.
     
  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Uh, you forgot to add "AND THEIR CHILDREN""....afterall, what makes a woman a mother?


    Ya, good idea, stop support for mothers and CHILDREN , gee, that should really cut down on the number of women who have abortions ….:roll:




    YUP, and Planned Parenthood does just that ! :)






    Who made it a "social crime " to be married??? Did Rush tell you that ?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) Looks like your poll looks like all the polls for the last several years …:) :)

    More than half don't want it overturned …..sanity will prevail...
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  14. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, let’s cut off assistance for single mothers...let their children go hungry. How about having free childcare so women could work. What’s with this making it a social crime to be married? Sounds like more extremist thinking
     
  15. Moriah

    Moriah Well-Known Member

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    I sure hope so. It would be very tragic for us to return to back alley abortions.
     
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  16. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they will, there are way too many DECENT people who will help them out.

    And many states are already fighting back at Republicans attempt to enslave women..

    I have noticed that states who believe all Americans have rights have started fighting back...:)

    Vermont, law proposed to provide some of the strongest protections for abortion rights.

    Utah, DA refuses to enforce law banning abortion after 18 weeks.

    Wisconsin, governor will veto bill that Repugs support making it a felony for physicians to fail to care for terminal babies.

    Michigan, governor will veto Repug's bill that would ban the most common second trimester abortion procedure.

    Nevada even repealed a 1911 law against a woman terminating her own pregnancies...


    Protesters all over the US, those who don't want to go back to legal slavery of women..

    So , the list is starting...and will build...
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  17. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    These laws being passed are being done intentionally to force SCOTUS to find in opposition to laws against abortion once and for all. A result I look forward to, we've been arguing about this bullshit since I was still in diapers and I'm personally tired of it.
     
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  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Ya, it is ridiculous that in the 21st century women still have to fight for their rights.....that there are still people ignorant enough to believe women's only purpose is to gestate.
     
  19. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    What else is it based on?

    There are a lot of Catholics but they are not a majority of Christians and not all of them are rabidly pro-life, nor even most evanglicals
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  20. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    One more nail in Trump's gold plated coffin.
     
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  21. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I hope they will, but I think we might have to legislate a solution here.

    Vote Democrat. You see what Republicans want for us all in these kind of laws. Read The Handmaids Tale. It's becoming more and more prophetic each day.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  22. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I agree with you. I wouldn't self describe myself as a republican, but I'm definitely more republican than democrat. And yet I still think SCOTUS will strike down these bills once and for all.
     
  23. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I really hope so, but the court has become far more conservative with Trump's appointments. OTOH it's going to be difficult for Kavanaugh to walk back his statement that Roe is "settled law" so we shall see.

    Like I say, save your rights, vote Democrat.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  24. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    Nah. My taxes are way too high as it is. Plus I'm a huge 2A advocate..
     
  25. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Anti-abortion laws will raise your taxes to support them. Religious based tyrants will take your guns even faster than liberals, (who really don't want them)
     
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