Why do NeoAtheists deny the practice of atheism is a religion?<<MOD WARNING>>

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kokomojojo, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    They are saying: "I do not accept (as a truth) that God exists."
     
  2. Bear666

    Bear666 Banned

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    The bible fails at the very first hurdle since it offers no proof of gods existence it assumes god exists. You are basically saying god exist because god exists.
     
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  3. Bear666

    Bear666 Banned

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    So you are not making any statement of belief. A belief being as you defined it an acceptance of an argument as truth.
     
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  4. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If I’m asked the question I usually respond. “God is a meaningless concept impossible to define with any accuracy” “The quesion itself is therefore meaningless” Simple really.
     
  5. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    The Bible is no more evidence “god exists” than Harry Potter and the sorcerers stone is evidence “dumbledore” exists.
     
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  6. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Not so, as we can see god exists by definition, just like atheism is a religion by definition.


    If thats the case, BY YOUR logic G/god exists by definition!

    god
    spirit or being believed to control some part of the universe or life and often worshiped for doing so, or a representation of this being:

    God esp. in Christian, Jewish, and Muslim belief) the being that created and rules the universe, the earth, and its people


    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/god

    There it is! Incontrovertible proof 'by definition' G/god exists.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  7. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here we have the huge problem believers won’t face. If for arguments sake we accept the assertion the Bible is proof of God’s existence an honest examination of that tome tells us the Almighty is a sadistic, vengeful, unpredictable, narcissistic monster.
     
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  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, take the court for instance, albeit extreme if someone is accused of murder the burden of proof starts with the production of a corpse and so forth. I have described the first requirement to convince me that a murder may have taken place. Then of course it moves forward, with how did the person become a corpse to prove murder.

    The point, we know the requirements of the burden, neoatheists simply dismiss any evidence theists present as inadmissible and move the goal posts anywhere it serves to dismiss everything without explanation.

    case in point, you have not offered any specifics of the burden? What is acceptable evidence to convince a neo atheist G/god exists?
    Hardly, Plato could hardly have known about quarks etc, regardless that they exist.
    evidence isnt necessarily proof, though its a good start, which serves to increase ones 'faith' that something is true or false.
    Arguing in a vacuum is arguing without understood parameters, koko is nailing down the specifics of the neoatheist position, nothing more. I see neoatheists simply dismissing everything with a handwave and expectation that is all that is required to refute issues in a debate. Its not, if you claim someone has the burden and you intend to be the judge if that burden is met then you need to define the specifics of the burden as I demonstrated the framework of the 'required' burden for proving murder.
    Logic isnt personal though, and neither is reasoning, both are academic fields.
    That would certainly help avoid the definition games we have seen here.
    Well said.
     
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  9. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    No
     
  10. Bear666

    Bear666 Banned

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    Note for those who are confused, dictionary's do not define something into existence.
     
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  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I still have not been told what a "Neo-Atheist" is.....anyone?

    Apparently the OP cant be bothered.
     
  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    You could have said that without being snarky.
     
  13. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Atheism is a belief in non-belief. So you categorically deny something you have no evidence against."
     
  14. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The difference between religion and atheism is the first is mystical; the second, secular. Or, if you prefer, God asks for faith; an atheist asks for reason.
     
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  15. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why do you needlessly complicate a simple reality....and why do YOU believe something you have no evidence for?
     
  16. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fear: Any belief system that convinces there’s life after death, if swallowed undigested, can be comforting. Obversely, the tired old threat of going to Hell still works for many.
    Ego: Many religions assert the individual survives intact AS THEMSELF after death.
    Early: ‘education’ (brainwashing?) As the Jesuits tell us “Give us the boy/girl from birth till they’re seven and we’ve got them for life”.
    Cultural: The huge body of cultural tradition can be a powerful attraction. Instance, I ceased being a believer in my early teenage years but can still be profoundly moved by, for instance, the Bach B Minor Mass performed in a vast cathedral space.Then there’s the holidays etc. But hey, many who will list their religion on a census as Jewish, Christian etc aren’t actually believers, they’re coming along for the show and the incence.
    Intellectual: There’s a vast body of academic biblical apologetics, theology and pseudo-philosophy developed over centuries that manages through complex slight of hand to convince many their particular God exists.
    Materialism: This is an odd one. If we face the fact many organised religions are sitting on vast piles of wealth with fingers in many commercial pies being a member of such gives access to business oportunities otherwise unavailable.
    Loneliness: For many their attendance at religious services,bible study groups, singing in a choir, joining the line in a soup kitchen can be their only human contact of worth.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  17. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, I forgot CHARITY (GOOD WORKS?) For some the central message of the Gospels is to become ‘Christlike’ ( I know, subject to a vast range of definitions) and perform charitable works etc. For me the Christians I found most admirable were those who didn’t evangelise but simply got out into the world helding out a helping hand for the downtrodden sick and dispossessed. During the early days of the AIDS epidemic when I worked on care teams I had the privilage of getting to know a number of middle aged church ladies who were up to their elbows nursing terminal AIDS patients. Not one of them ever took advantage of the situation to evangelise or condemn those dying from HIV. On the other hand, on too many occassions, I witnessed their ’spirtual leaders’ IE priests et al criticise them for associating with ‘perverts’. Very Christian of them.
     
  18. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    I agree they dont thats why I posted it, G/god is real by definition. There it is. Dictionary's do not define something into existence, they define what exits.

    Wheres my "like"?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  19. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then we can have no real definition of ‘nothing’.
     
  20. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Dictionaries don't define "what exists", they define concepts, which are basically symbols the brain uses to create a model of reality. Such a model may, or may not, include the concept of God.

    Dictionaries define Hades, reincarnation, Vishnu - are those "what exists"?
     
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  21. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They’re more correctly termed abstractions.
     
  22. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    Hi @JakeStarkey
    Not all "Atheists" take the same approach.
    0. First of all, some keep their beliefs personal to themselves, while others try to convert others or change society.
    This is true of any identity, some people "make it a religion" and some people DON'T.
    So there are at least 2-3 levels of this
    a. personal beliefs that stay separate from others
    b. religious beliefs that connect with other people in groups
    c. political beliefs that intersect with public policy and democratic process

    Example: Some Socialists, Some LGBT, Some Constitutionalists keep their
    beliefs TO THEMSELVES. Some try to NATIONALIZE it or GLOBALIZE it
    for EVERYONE ELSE. Some do a MIX of personal and public outreach,
    and may or may not take their beliefs into the public arena with laws and legislative process.

    It's not fair to say ALL treat their "Atheist beliefs" as a religion.
    But yes, some do. Some, not all!

    B. there are DIFFERENT DEGREES of Atheism, that the SAME TERM
    is used to cover like a blanket. Thus, people of different beliefs are thrown
    in together and this gets very confusing when they are accused of things
    they aren't saying because of "other people" who do that, not them.

    1. Anti-theism is politically or personally OPPOSED to Theists, Christianity, and God doctrines
    or even Religion in general
    a. If it's PERSONAL then it may or may not be religious
    b. If it connects with others as a group and influences public communication, that's where it can get religious
    where the person is actively "proselytizing" and trying to convert others or change public perception/policy
    c. And if beliefs get interjected into democratic process affecting public policy and lobbying it can be
    more like a "political religion" as some of the hard-core anti-theists lobbying to REMOVE crosses and religious references.
    (NOTE: not all lobbyist or advocates of that are the "anti-theist" type, some may be more passive supporters who are
    normally more neutral)

    2. NONTHEISM is neutral or closer to neutral and just uses SECULAR principles or Nontheistic terms,
    and doesn't see the world in terms of a PERSONIFIED GOD OR JESUS AS AN ANTHROPOMORPHIC FIGURE.

    3. Atheism can also be 2 different angles, either
    3a. NOT believing there is a God
    3b. Believing there is NOT a God
    I've run into BOTH, so I would CLEARLY make a distinction
    instead of talking to the wrong person in the wrong way.

    Overall, I find more "atheists" to be NONTHEISTS, and only when put in CONTEXTS with other
    Christians proselytizing religiously or lobbying politically do they start expressing in defense where it gets
    equally religious or political. If left to their own devices, most stay NONTHEIST and very few are
    the hardcore ANTITHEIST type that not only have their religious beliefs, but get political with their religion.
    Very few.

    This debate is mostly about a - b - c and whether
    take a personal, religious or political approach to their beliefs.


    But if you get confused about 1,2,3
    you could ALSO end up going IN CIRCLES
    insulting the other person and vice versa.
     
  23. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    But wait a second... You asked me for evidence; you didn't ask me for proof.

    From my understanding, you made it quite clear that the burden of proof for the "god exists" proposition requires evidence which is consistent with the claim that the proposition is true and inconsistent with the claim the proposition is false. --- The Holy Bible is indeed consistent with the claim "god exists is true" and inconsistent with the claim "god exists is false". In other words, it fits what you said would meet the burden of proof for that proposition.

    Precisely! You're supporting my own argumentation at this point, without realizing it... And it is that type of circular reasoning which happens to be the basis of ALL religions.

    The bolded is the logical framework of Theism. It is an assumption that god(s) DO exist. Then, other arguments will stem from that particular assumption. That's what makes Theism a religion.

    Then, extending from what has been established above, one can also make an assumption about a PARTICULAR god(s) existence. That leads towards the establishment of separate religions which stem from Theism as a whole, such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc...

    Any religion will start with an initial assumption, an "initial circular argument", and then other arguments will stem from (be dependent upon) that initial assumption. That's the logical framework behind how religion works, and Atheism follows that same precise logical framework. Therefore, Atheism IS a religion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
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  24. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    [gfm7175] They are saying: "I do not accept (as a truth) that God exists." [/gfm7175]

    It is indeed making a statement of belief, though. It is accepting as a truth (ie, "believing") that Theism is not true.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  25. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    God CAN be defined, though... For instance, the Christian God (as mentioned in the Holy Bible) can be defined as a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, intelligent, personal creator of the universe. Or, more simplistically (and speaking of any general god), god can be defined as "the greatest conceivable being".

    So, your objection to the meaningfulness of God as a concept does not hold water.
     

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