Trump Preparing for Nuclear War

Discussion in 'United States' started by HereWeGoAgain, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. kreo

    kreo Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly what Democrat party wants by pushing their homosexual, racial and sexist agenda.
     
  2. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Hate to break it to you but there is no such thing as TDS. It is yet another right-wing meme to distract from Donald's history as a supposed businessman and his complete incompetence and lack of qualification for office.

    I know you don't want to face any of that but I have studied Trump's history and fact-checked with multiple authors and documents so I know his background pretty well. I actually agree with you that the Democrats have gone insane over Russiagate but that does not detract from the truth of Trump's sordid past from the Atlantic City days right up to Trump university.

    So trying to suggest that I have a phony syndrome may make you feel better but as with all right-wing memes, there is little basis in reality.
     
  3. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    So you think national debt is a good thing overall? Also, you think getting into a major conflict in the Middle East with global ramifications is a good thing for America?
     
  4. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    As I pointed out, the number detonating in the U.S. would most likely be in the hundreds. And not targeted on cities anyway.
     
  5. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    We're not in a major conflict in the Middle East. Assuming we are talking about Iran, the U.S. could sink the Iranian Navy and destroy half the SAM sites in the Gulf on the Iranian side and it still wouldn't be a "major conflict".

    Remember we've done that before.
     
  6. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Nope. My complaint is that there is not enough democracy.

    You are trying to justify a CIA coup that overthrew a democratically elected leader in another country because they dared to nationalize their own oil resources. If Iran was better off with the Shah and his vicious state repression and secret police, then why did the Iranian people overthrow the Shah in the first place and put in place the Ayatollahs? Perhaps because the did not want to be ruled and their oil reserves exploited for the benefit of western corporations?

    Strawman, as usual.
     
  7. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Everything I've read indicates that the Shah's regime was not remotely as repressive and brutal as the Ayatollahs. And Mossegah or whatever his name was not remotely some beneficent western styled elected leader.

    A democracy is NOT "one man, one vote....once".
     
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  8. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Iran is not Iraq. Yes you are the most powerful military nation on Earth but look at the trouble you had in Vietnam or even in putting down the insurrection in Iraq.

    I don't think you understand the damage Iran can do to you or how tired your people are of endless wars or how much it is going to cost in men and money to bring Iran down once you start bombing. Nor do I think you understand how vulnerable your forces are in Shia dominated places like Iraq and Saudi Arabia - whose major oil region is Shia dominated territory.

    Yes, you would be the victor eventually in a conflict with Iran but don`t underestimate the snake-pit you are about to fall into or what this is going to cost you in terms of men, money and unintended consequences that arise from your own hubris and aggression towards weaker countries.
    Bullies often don`t see the punches coming and don`t kid yourself - any conflict with Iran is your own aggression and bullying

    The whole world outside America and even some of those on Fox news understand that you are blundering into something with the potential to get very nasty.

    I hope I am wrong but I understand geopolitical strategy and I can see the weakness of your position especially after the disaster of Iraq -which the neo-cons running foreign policy seem to have forgetten.

    Or maybe this time they will get it right even though they have gotten nothing right since 911 except turning the ME into a living hell.
     
  9. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Once you start bombing, you may think you can get out with limited strikes but the odds are you will unleash a sh*tstaorm of retaliation.

    Do you know how many missiles and sophisticated anti-air defenses Iran hasÉ

    Do you know how many friends Iran has around the MEÉ (sorry the shift function is screwed on this computer so no question marks - not my computer)

    Do you know how many missiles Hezbollah has or how they fought the mighty IDF to a draw in 2006É

    Don`t kid yourself. You have an angry, spitting badger in a corner and now you are going to have to deal with it.

    And the only way you seem to have to deal with problems is aggression, sanctions and war.

    I don`t think you realize the danger.
     
  10. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not referring to Iraq. I'm referring to Operation: Praying Mantis in 1988 when the U.S. effortlessly (yet exercising restraint) destroyed half of the Iranian Navy.
     
  11. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Minimal
    &
    Minimal
     
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  12. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Everything you read is probably self-serving propaganda in order to justify the US that it is always good and right and proper and bringing freedom and democracy to the world.

    Here, try reading something based in reality and tell me how you would like it if another country invaded the US and put in place a brutal puppet dictatorship beholden to foreign oil corporations:

    ``Americans must recognize two facts governing the situation in Iran. One is the breadth of support for the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini among politically sophisticated intellectuals as well as millions of urban and rural Iranians who never before participated in the political process. The other is the complete absence among these same people of loyalty for Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, who is regarded as a traitor, a creation of American and British imperialism. In their view, the shah’s regime reflected American interests as faithfully as Vidkun Quisling’s puppet government in Norway reflected the interests of Nazi Germany in World War II. The shah’s defense program, his industrial and economic transactions, and his oil policy were all considered by most Iranians to be faithful executions of American instructions. Ultimately, the United States was blamed for the thousands killed during the last year by the Iranian army, which was trained, equipped, and seemingly controlled by Washington. Virtually every wall in Iran carried a slogan demanding the death of the "American shah."

    Reluctantly and belatedly, the American media and most Washington officials came to recognize Khomeini’s great popularity and the discipline he exercises over his followers. The extent of Khomeini’s support was manifested when a total of 8 million Iranians marched in peaceful and orderly ranks in different cities last December 11.``


    https://foreignpolicy.com/1979/03/16/goodbye-to-americas-shah/

    ``When the Shah was forced to flee the country, the British and American governments financed a coup to overthrow Mosaddeq and restore their man to power. The Shah ran a brutally repressive regime, enforced by the notorious Savak secret police. He was backed all the way by the British and American governments.

    But many Iranians were angered by his autocratic rule and the spectacle of rampant corruption throughout his government.

    The carnival of corruption was so conspicuous inside the Shah's Iran that it was bound to trouble Britain's own diplomats stationed there. They saw bribery every day. But many of them no doubt simply failed to grasp that their own government was implicated.``

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/08/bae44


    https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...of-iranian-dissidents-close-to-home-1.6913870

    The reason the west didn`t like Mosaddegh was because he dared to nationalize the countries oil reserves for the benefit of the Iranian people, something the American and British could never stand for and never forgive.

    Again, how would you have liked it if someone had done that in your country - install a dictator and puppet beholden to foreign corporations, I meanÉ
     
  13. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Don`t kid your self. You have pushed Iran into an existential situation. And thanks to your illegal attack on Iraq they are much stronger in the region.

    Here, watch this:



    Yes, you are stronger militarily by far but you were in Vietnam as well.

    You don`t understand the danger for the entire region and possibly the world.
     
  14. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Don`t kid yourself about what you are getting into.

    You think you can get out with limited strikes. I`m telling you you have put Iran into an existential position of total war and you have no exit strategy to get out if it turns out to be a shtstrm.

    Unintended consequences.
     
  15. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    You are a foreign alarmist obviously. I can find plenty of youtube videos that show how the U.S. can kick ass and take names against any opponent in the world.
     
  16. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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  17. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Are you sure?
     
  18. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Psssssst, he knows the meaning of life and the number of angels that can dance on the head of a needle. Ask him about his magical powers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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  19. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Damn. Iran is so powerful it can wipe out America without getting a scratch. Wonder what she’s waiting for?
     
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  20. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The point of deterrence is .... deterrence.
    Russia is not going to sit around and play nice while we destroy the Russian homeland.

    I think it would be highly unlikely for either the US or Russia to launch hundreds of missiles in a first strike as this would as the other side would respond in kind. It would likely start with a few as a warning to the other side to stop attacking the homeland. The first use of nukes - say in the case of the US attacking the Russian homeland - would not even be at the US homeland. They would just nuke our carriers or forces targeting them.

    Should things escalate from there - you could easily see many hundreds - if not thousands - and cities would be targeted.
     
  21. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Neither side has enough available strategic nuclear weapons to attack all of the others nuclear weapons and cities as well.

    Standard nuclear weapons targeting doctrine call for two warheads at each hardened target. Meaning it would take just about everything both sides have to target ICBM silos and hardened command posts.
     
  22. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Military installations would definitely be targeted. It’s possible that a nuclear war could be caught with virtually no damages to major cities, with some exceptions where cities host military bases.
    Russia would also end up nuking a lot of countries, not just the US. They really are in unwinnable position at this point. Nice bravado with their jets, but other than that they are in a corner.
     
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  23. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    The real irony is that the various nuclear weapons reduction treaties (which I consider on the balance to be a good thing) may well have made some kind of nuclear exchange more likely in the future. Because now the overwhelming number of weapons are no longer available to discourage their use at a lower level.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why are they going to target empty silos ?
     
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  25. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    They probably won't be empty. Why?

    1)Though television and movie producers (and novelists) love to portray it as happening this way for obvious dramatic reasons, neither the U.S. or Russia (Soviet Union) ever adopted a "launch on warning" policy. That is launching nuclear weapons based on information from early warning systems (over the horizon radars and satellite surveillance). The closest either has come is what is called "launch under attack" which means that a nuclear response is not launched until there are actual nuclear detonations on your soil. Given that the side being attacked is waiting for actual nuclear detonations there is a real chance of the other side destroying some or even a majority of your nuclear missiles before they are launched.

    2) Even if one side adopts "launch on warning" there is a pretty narrow window of time to launch ICBMs in retaliation. The earliest confirmed warning the president get of ICBMs launched will be 20-25 minutes prior to impacts. Assuming everything goes perfectly, and a president reacts quickly in all likelihood, the president is unlikely to get a confirmable launch order out in the form of Emergency Action Messages until enemy ICBMs are no more than 10 minutes from impact. And USAF airman in Launch Control Centers much go through their procedures and for obvious reasons (avoid possible debris clouds above the missile silos), the ICBMS need to leave their silos at least 2 minutes (and probably 5) before the incoming ICBMs impact.

    Given those obvious problems it is highly likely that a fair number of American ICBMs could be destroyed prior to launch or during launch.

    3) The problems are far worse for the Russians because:

    A) From everything I've read the Russian launch procedures are considerably more cumbersome and time consuming compared to the American ones.
    B) American D-5 sea launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) with W87 warheads aboard Ohio class ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) are fully capable of destroying hardened targets in Russia (and elsewhere) with a single hit. And though they have the range to strike those targets from their home ports, the submarines can easily move much closer to Russia (or elsewhere) and have their warheads hitting their targets in 10 minutes or less. Making any kind of "launch on warning" by the Russians or Chinese mathematically impossible.

    The Russian and Chinese SLBMs do not have the accuracy to do the same.

    4) You've mentioned before Russian warheads not mounted on missiles and available for use. If the U.S. left hardened missile silos untouched it would be more than possible for the Russians to round up more missiles and mount warheads on them. The natural and best defended place to put them would be in hardened silos. It might take a few days at least but then the ICBMs would be usable.
     

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