Should the success of religion impact its credibility?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by ARDY, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    we cannot fail to notice how various religions have spread far and wide through out the worlds populations. The indisputable success of religions seems to lead inexorably to a conclusion that: There MUST be something there. There must be some substance behind the worldwide acceptance of religious ideas. Certainly we must acknowledge that many brilliant and undeniably well intentioned people have promoted religion throughout history. Likewise we cannot deny an abundance of admirable impacts on society. Therefore, it seems a forgone conclusion that religion must necessarily have a substance that sets it beyond rejection.

    All that seeks fairly obvious, But still, let’s have a closer look

    Recently, i stumbled across a youtube on mormonism... the church of Jesus Christ of the latter day saints. The video starts out by saying that this religion started out with Joseph Young... a 14 year old boy in new york who claimed to be visited by extra terrestrials who instructed him to start a religion... and revealed to him gold tablets buried in new york, upon which sacred revelations were written in a previously unknown language called as reformed Egyptian... which language the 14 year old boy could miraculously understand... the tablets origin by being buried by Egyptians who sailed here long ago... and the tablets being later lost And so not available for any sort of scrutiny.

    With all respect for the sincerity of mormons reading this, i think most non mormons would find the above story to be non credible, if not ludicrous. Never the less, this religion has credibility markers that are very similar to those of Christianity ... both have a large base of adherents, are rapidly growing, successful, have many very intelligent people as adherents, have built up admirable societies, have abundant good works like schools and hospitals.

    In short.... the latter day saints religion should produce a strong estimate of credibility based upon its results... even despite an origin story that seems dubious at best. So, for that reason, it seems to me that we cannot accept Christianity as unquestionable simply because it has grown large, has produced good societies, and has been promoted by unquestionably brilliant and well intentioned followers. And, frankly, when looked at with an unbiased perspective.... i think the origin story of Christianity is about as dubious as that of Joseph Smith
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
    DennisTate and modernpaladin like this.
  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well based on your subject line, if your primary criteria is how successful the religion is, then do you mean, successful in terms of spreading far and wide, or successful in terms producing successful societies or communities?
     
  3. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    I consider the highlighted words to be the flaws of your statement.
     
  4. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    According to the fairy tale, Moses started a religion. He was a con man and an extortionist. He would be called a criminal by today's standards.
     
  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    OK now do Mohammed.
     
  6. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Religion adapts continuously over time. It is a way of gaining power and control and as such has to at least try to stay ahead of the evolution of it's followers. Or of course it can shift its demographic focus to continue to appeal to the less educated portions of the planets population.
     
  7. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Like other cults (Islam), the founders of Mormonism were basically dirty old men. One of them seduced married women by telling them if they gave in their dead relatives would go to heaven.
     
  8. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    That's one way to get laid.....:)
     
  9. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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  10. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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  11. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Did you know that Mohammed said that slims should wipe their behinds after taking a dump with three stones (rocks)? I wonder how many people still follow that rule?
     
  12. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Although I freely admit I don't know who the slims are, I do appreciate that you spent several days working on this response, because you were actually worried about criticizing Islam in the same way you criticized Judaism. I noticed you didn't call anything about Mohammed a fairy tale!
     
  13. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    People do have other things to do beside respond to your comments three seconds after you post them.

    All religions are fairy tales. Islam is a fairy tale that is based on other fairy tales. Remember that so that I won't have to include it in future comments. The main difference between the fairy tales is that Islam is less racist than Judaism and Christianity. However, all of them are ethnocentric specific Middle Eastern religious fairy tales so it is silly for anyone who isn't a Jew or an Arab to be a believer.
     
  14. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    I didn't catch the typo.

    The comment was in reference to the hadith =

    It was narrated that Khuzaimah bin Thabit said:
    "The Messenger of Allah said: 'For cleaning yourself you need three stones, no one of them being dung.'"
    https://sunnah.com/urn/1253140

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
    The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: When any of you goes to relieve himself, he should take with him three stones to cleans himself, for they will be enough for him.
    https://sunnah.com/abudawud/1/40
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    So you finally coughed out that Islam is a fairy tale, but you still couldn't do it without mentioning Judaism or Christianity! My point was that you picked out Judaism specifically in your earlier post by itself, and when pushed into a corner, could only give the same kind of attack against Islam when you bundled it with the two other Abrahamic religions.

    It's almost as if I could write your replies myself since in some areas they are extremely predictable.
     
  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    And none of that seems to have anything to do with anything.
     
  17. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever read the Bible and the Talmud?
     
  18. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    What, no question about whether I've read the Quran? LOL!
     
  19. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    So, since you know the Bible, the Talmud, and the Koran do you also know the Book of Mormon? Which one is your favorite? Are you a wiccan, sciencetologist, Buddhist, Taoist, Confucian, pagan, animist, atheist, or something else?
     
  20. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Whut? What does this have to do with you mocking Islam (and Christianity) but studiously avoiding Islam? Reading any of those religious books has nothing to do with that. I was just curious why you open contempt of religions exempted at least one big one.?
     
  21. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    So do you find the historical accounts of Jesus dubious, or just the claim that he is God?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  22. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    OK, just for you, I will try to include the phrase "all religions." Thank you for being my personal editor.
     
  23. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Just trying to keep you from chickening out.
     
  24. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How believable do you find joseph smith story?
    I believe that joseph Smith and jesus were both historical people
    Beyond that, i am dubious

    As as so called historical accounts of jesus as historical documents

    if gospels agreed about all the important stuff

    If they did not say stuff that was incomprehensible even if jesus was god
    Like for instance a detailed record of jesus # trial before pontius pilot

    If bible narratives were actually written by people who knew jesus

    If the bible narratives did not shift over the time they were written

    If the bible narratives (other than paul) had their author’s name attached

    if there were not such massive disagreements in the early church about what was the message

    If jesus did not clearly bring a message from a jew, to a jewish community... only to have the message translated into an entirely new religion almost exclusively taught to non jews

    If jesus actually DID come back to rule while the people then living were still alive... as he seemed to claim, and as early Christians absolutely expected

    If the whole idea of god sending his son to redeem our sins made any sense outside the context of the Christian cult

    If I understood why god would have sent his son in this manner to bear a message that was then not immediately recorded

    Iif I understood why god would be so focused on this small inconsequential tribe in the middle east

    For those reasons and many others
    I doubt the historical accuracy of the bible,
    and consequently the idea that jesus is god
     
  25. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    I didn't ask you about the historical accuracy of the Bible.
     

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