Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Alter2Ego, May 1, 2012.

  1. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    I was just wondering why an entity that created the whole scheme of things feels the need to be worshipped?
     
  2. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No-one has ever seen God. You just know that God created the universe. .

    What on earth made 'God' start a universe 13bn years ago, Create the earth 4.5bn years ago. An earth that is so unstable that it frequently destroys his creation - man. You'd have thought he would have made a stable earth. Is it the fault of men that floods occur, earthquakes occur, volcanoes erupt and thousands of his human and animal creation perish. And the mythical Adams sin has nothing to do with it. The earth has been that way since it came into being, long before man evolved..
     
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  3. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No....it is not an accidental
    And evolution is not accidental either
    But otoh, there is design, without a designer
    It is called emergent design
    Same thing with snow flakes
    They all have a different design, but no designer
     
  4. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have faith, and confuse that with knowing

    Imo this is a typical “god of the gaps” argument. Any gap in our understanding is tied to god.... whom we cannot understand.

    When We don’t understand things like disease, droughts, lightning... we attribute them to the divine... ie god of the gaps. Once we start to understand, we no longer need the god of the gaps because the gap is gone

    But this causes a problem for theists. If science destroys too many gaps. (Evolution and modern cosmology). Then the need for god is unacceptably diminished. the gaps need to be restored to restore the need for a god of the gaps. This is accomplished by rejecting science
     
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  5. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Faith is complete trust or confidence in someone or something. You would hardly have faith in something without knowing that it exists.
     
  6. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    Very well put.
     
  7. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    You don't know that it exists, you just believe it.
     
  8. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not true. The very nature of faith is to have confidence in something uncertain. No one says they have faith in gravity
     
  9. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Apparently the distinction between need and want eludes you.
     
  10. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Evidently you take the creator for a simpleton.
     
  11. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Trust me, it's not the intelligence of the Creator I'm questioning just now.
     
  12. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    I doubt you ever would yet that is no address..
     
  13. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your quote is only part of the meaning of faith. It can apply equally to the 'certain'. That your child will obey your instructions because of what he has been taught.

    I have faith that gravity will, in the event of engine failure on an aircraft, eventually bring me - one way or the other - to earth. I cannot see gravity, only its action. You cannot see god, only believe because you claim he created the earth. You can substitute the word faith with trust But that has been debated endlessly on another thread some time ago.
     
  14. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    People often suspend critical thinking.
     
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  15. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    The Christian God was created by man in the image of man. Most people like to have their a** kissed.
     
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  16. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is that an example of faith?
    If so, is the child certain that what he has been taught is correct, or is he intimidated into obedience.

    From my experience as a child, and knowing children.... children are often doubtful about what they are taught....they consider it a suggestion...

    That is not faith it is knowledge.... because you know of no circumstance where this would not happen. You have FAITH that there will NOT be a catastrophic engine failure. Yoi have faith that we he pilot is skilled. You have faith that the ground crew properly maintains the plane. You have faith that the plane is well designed. You have faith that enough fuel was loaded. But you KNOW that if your faith is misplaced, the exigencies of gravity will cause you a problem

    Which you see to be reliable with out exception

    Nor can you see his actions to be reliable without exception

    That BELIEF is you shugging your shoulders and sighing that you cannot come up with a credible alternative explanation. And you telling yourself that you surely hope there is a god and a heaven so there is some additional meaning to your life since you do not like the idea that the lives we see are all we will ever get. And of course you also like the idea that all the people who do things you do not like will ultimately be punished... even though it surely looks like they are getting away with crap hear in earth

    As Saint Ronald Reagan said: “trust, but verify”
    Which is to say that to some extent we are forced to exist in trust... even though we know our trust may be betrayed or mistaken. Therefore we all do our due diligence to check up on whether our trust is well founded.

    As an atheist, i am doing my due diligence concerning trust in god. sadly, i see no basis for trust in god..... well, no basis other than the fact that it is expediently more comfortable to imagine that i have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe.... and that i will eternally endure in heaven after my apparent death on this earth.

    I agree that god and eternal salvation are pleasant ideas I just do not see evidence that these are more than pleasant, expedient delusions
     
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  17. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The thread thread asks


    Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?”

    I ask whether this is a false dichotomy?


    If i see lightning in the sky.... is that either god, or accident?

    If a volcano erupts.... is that either god or accident?

    If an apple falls from a tree, are out explanations limited to either God caused the apple to fall....or the apple fell by accident?

    If the apple falls following precise laws.... must that be gods design?

    If there are physical laws (like gravity) ... and we do not know why there are physical laws.... must we then say: “ ok, we see that there are physical laws; we do not know WHY there are these physical laws; so since we have no other explanation, lets say there is a god who has set up these physical laws.” There, now we have an explanation for the origin physical laws.

    Hey, that worked pretty well.... lets just agree that EVERYTHING we can not explain is because of god.

    No, at doesn't work because we do not want bad things to happen because of god.... so lets invent a bad god.... lets call him the devil.,,. Now we can credit all the good stuff we don’t understand on the good god, and all the bad stuff we don’t understand on the devil
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  18. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That BELIEF is you shugging your shoulders and sighing that you cannot come up with a credible alternative explanation. And you telling yourself that you surely hope there is a god and a heaven so there is some additional meaning to your life since you do not like the idea that the lives we see are all we will ever get. And of course you also like the idea that all the people who do things you do not like will ultimately be punished... even though it surely looks like they are getting away with crap hear in earth.

    That's odd. I am an atheist. I have no desire for anyone to go to any hell. I accept that life is here, and death is a part of life. If there is a spirit life after death - well and good. If not, I may never know. I suspect the Buddhists have it right. The energy that keeps my body going will become part of the universal energy

    Christina Rosseti had it right.

    When I am dead, my dearest,
    Sing no sad songs for me;
    Plant thou no roses at my head,
    Nor shady cypress tree:
    Be the green grass above me
    With showers and dewdrops wet;
    And if thou wilt, remember,
    And if thou wilt, forget.

    I shall not see the shadows,
    I shall not feel the rain;
    I shall not hear the nightingale
    Sing on, as if in pain:
    And dreaming through the twilight
    That doth not rise nor set,
    Haply I may remember,
    And haply may forget.
     
  19. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

    Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
     
  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    exactly, if nature needs a creator, then so does a God
     
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  21. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    how could a "God" just happen? which amounts to a accidental occurrence
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  22. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He doesn't.
     
  23. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you believe in infinite time or infinite space?
     
  24. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    How do you know it's a male?
     
  25. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    if a God can exists without a creator, so can energy and energy be just ever changing

    as for infinite time or infinite space, who knows, maybe at some point it pops or collapses in on itself for another bang
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019

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