The Bible II

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Moi621, Feb 26, 2019.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You keep spouting man made gibberish as if it has some defacto relation to God.

    The wages of Life is death - What ever creative force caused us to exist - the fact of the matter is that we were created in a way such that we must kill life in order to live. Sinning has nothing to do with that equation.

    If you had read the Bible - as you implore others to do - you would realize that God is a sinner - or at least one of the Gods in the Bible. The YHWH fellow is a flip flopping xenophobic genocidal maniac with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics and flaws.

    This God makes a rule - a good rule - stating that Children should not be punished for the sins of their parents. YHWH then turns around and orders the Israelite's to kill children and babies "because of the sins of their parents".

    Earlier on in the Bible we have this El Shaddai fellow. As it turns out this is El - Supreme deity of the Sumerian Pantheon. This God creates some humans - with the help of other Gods but I digress.

    This God then regrets his decision to create humans - So much for the "all knowing" fiction. Obviously if God knew that his decision to create humans would turn out badly - he would not have done it - saving himself some regret.

    Then God does something really dumb. He decides to wipe out all humans - because " The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them"

    So fair enough - humans were an experiment gone bad - a mistake - so lets erase that mistake - except ?? God decides to let a few humans live - knowing full well that this will just propagate the same evil and wickedness all over again. This is like wiping out a plague - but intentionally leaving a few infested people uncured - to reinfect everyone.

    If God does not like evil and wickedness - why would he create a being whose "every inclination and thoughts was only evil all the time" ?
     
  2. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    that's certainly YOUR OPINION and a minority opinion worldwide
     
  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Suffering from evil is the result of Free Will. If we couldn't enact evil on others, we wouldn't have Free Will.

    Suffering from an adverse environment is what drives us to create and innovate. If we didn't need shelter, tools or work, we would be living as animals, naked and simple. Overcoming the suffering of our harsh environment is what led us to explore the moon and what will eventually lead us to colonize and develope the farthest reaches of space, and unlock the mysteries of the universe with advanced technologies.

    Without suffering, we wouldn't be more than God's pets, evolutionary children lanquishing about in Eden for eternity.

    If we keep trying, we very well mat eliminate all suffering- from our evironment by mastering technological control over it; from ourselves by choosing cooperatively to stop hurting eachother.

    If successful, we'll have built 'Heaven' and likely will rival God in effective power. How neat it would be to meet Him face to face, objectively, of our own doing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is not opinion. YHWH is depicted the way he is depicted. While your attempt to avoid the obvious facts presented is normal for adherents - it does not change the facts. Some just can not handle the truth.
     
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  5. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you really serious ? So people are supposed to live in the open. People killed when the earth opens up to them? When driving along a road?. When a bridge collapses?
    You really can't be serious.

    The Bible says many things. Many in error. Adam is adapted from Adama in Sumerian myth. The flood from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Creation is an amalgamation of different earlier creation myths. Abraham, Moses, the Exodus are all in a fictional story written in the 7th century BCE by scribes in Babylonian exile. There was no Exodus and invasion of Palestine. Archaeology shows that Palestine was conquered by indigenous tribes - including one called Israel - who overthrew their Egyptian masters who ruled Palestine.

    So children killed by the Israelites under God's instructions were guilty of sin? The idea of original sin didn't come in until a couple of centuries after Jesus, the Jewish Preacher. It's all Christian doctrine.

    People have lived on flood plains since the beginning of time. It's where they got their water for agriculture, and still do. Without these areas the world would be short of food because we would have to feed them
    I've no doubt you live a comfortable life. Try living in Bangladesh and such places, Rivers are a vital source of water that is often fought over. Do you get your water from a tap? Do you water your lawn? Other people need water to keep alive. .Do you suggest we feed them to allow them to move somewhere else?.

    Christianity is adapted from Judaism. Judaism is adapted from other beliefs and so on. There is no evidence that Jesus was anything more than a Jewish Preacher. The Nativity stories contradict each other and neither can be corroborated. They go against the Jewish and Romans laws of the time and if you study them against these you have chaos. We have hundreds of thousands of people descending on the village of Bethlhem for no reason. We have Joseph and family in Egypt and Nazareth at the same time.

    We have no idea what Jesus the preacher really said, Who wrote the Gospels? And when? Jesus the preacher died in 28 CE. The first Gospel was written 3-4 decades later. Mark never travelled with Jesus. Whoever wrote the Gospel got his information secondhand. Ditto the others.
    We have 3 chapters giving us a supposed verbatim 'sermon on the mount' - written by ? around 6 decades after Jesus death. The Beatitudes are not Jesus teaching. Most come from the OT. As does most of Jesus supposed teaching.
     
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  6. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    The title of this thread is the bible. It was started with the idea that we will discuss the bible and what it says..
    Not to debate whether what it says is true or not.
    If you want ro bash the bible go elsewhere. There are lots of threads for that. Expect no more responses from me.
     
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  7. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fine. If you want to discuss a book that has been proved, in many cases, of doubtful origin and content, fine. That's the problems with those who promote the Bible. Refusal to actually study the real Bible. That is the Bible against the background on which it is written. Just the nativity stories alone prove its fallibility.
    Archaeology dismisses some of the Bible, and confirms other parts. Like others, you have no answer to the questions and points put forward. . For years I preached the Gospel, but study outside the Bible showed it in error in many things. I am now at least agnostic.

    Your debate is just irrelevant if you cannot acknowledge the Bibles errors.
     
  8. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Goodbye.
     
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  9. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another who can't take the truth. Goodbye.
     
  10. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As you probably know, Yahweh is taken from the Ugarit Pantheon of gods. The chief being El and one of his sons being Jahweh. When the supposed kingdom of David/Solomon split the northern kingdom worshipped El at Shiloh and the southern kingdom worshipped Yahweh in Jerusalem. When the northern kingdom was taken by the Assyrians the southern kingdom was left with Yahweh. They took all the attributes of the Ugarit Pantheon and gave them to Yahweh. Ugarit and Judaism are interwoven in several ways, Their respective poetry, literature and Psalms (Hymns) often using the same thoughts and words
    It's a shame these 'Bible' students have no idea of what I call the REAL Bible. That based on background, culture, history of the time. They'd save themselves a lot of trouble by actually understanding what the Bible does and doesn't say.
     
  11. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Feel free to start another thread to discuss that, you clearly have an axe to grind but this threat isn't a sharpening wheel.
     
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  12. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    My apologies to Moi for all this junk
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You may have seen one or both of these.
    http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_144.pdf
    http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DT32BibSac.pdf

    That El was the God of the Abraham is taken as a matter of course these days. YHWH was initially a local God in all likely hood - later spoken of as one of the many son's of El as you mention. Over time the characteristics of the Caananite Gods such as Ball and El were graphed on to this YHWH fellow.

    Page 7 in the second link is particularly interesting. It refutes any question of inerrancy - that the Bible is 100% the word of God - and shows how the Bible was changed over time to hide the old ways and better reflect the dogma of the day.

    The same passage Deut 32:43 is given from 3 different texts. The LXX and 4DeutQ are old prior to the common era .. whereas the Masoretic was done roughly 700 to 900 AD. References to other divinities exist in the two older texts but are removed in the modern text.

    A complete whitewash. What is also interesting is to then go to this verse in a modern text which removes the meaning even from the Masoretic text which has God wreaking vengeance on his foes "and will cleanse the peoples land"

    From the NIV for example
    he will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people.

    We still have the wreaking vengeance part but all of a sudden it is Gods land rather than the peoples land and God is no longer cleansing the land (which has obvious connotations) - God is making an atonement for something.

    The entire meaning of the passage is pretty much gone.
     
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  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes .. best you run to the playground to stick head deep in the sandbox if denial - Adults are speaking.
     
  15. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But this is all about the Bible and what it says. It's just that you don't understand what it really says. You believe the Nativity stories, Have you studied them against the background of the time? Joseph HAD NO REASON TO GO TO BETHLEHEM. Roman law which was in operation and that demanded he stayed at home in Nazareth. The census was for tax purposes, and tax was on a persons property, not himself. . Even if he had been required to go, Mary need not have gone with him. 'Because Joseph was of the house and lineage of David' was irrelevant. David had been dead 1000 years. There was probably noone in Bethlehem related to David. Bethlehem had been virtually emptied by the Babylonians. Many of the occupants had left before the invasion and gone to Greek city states, Egypt and North Africa and many decided life in Babylon was to their liking, and remained. Luke simply made up the story to get Joseph to Bethlehem. Matthew puts Joseph as living in Bethlehem when his business was several days journey away in Nazareth. What did he use - Pony Express. - to get to work. The writer of Matthews Gospuses a verse from Hosea 11 to get Jesus to Egypt. Yet Hosea is completely about Israel. No mention of Jesus If he uses one verse out of context of the chapter/book, then the whole Bible comes under suspicion. Christians take verses and chapters completely out of context. If you want to use Hosea then Jesus must have completed the rest of chapter 11. Finally Luke has Joseph and family in Nazareth after 40 days (after Mary's purification under Jewish religious law). Luke tells us they stayed there while Jesus grew up. The writer of Matthews gospel sends Joseph and family to Egypt. They can't be in both places at the same time. The trial and crucifixion are similarly confused by Jewish law and Roman Law. Undoubtedly the Preacher was crucified. But that was for calling the religious heirarchy all sorts of unpleasant, but true, truths. Matthew 23.

    If you think this is wrong look at it for yourself. The above tells you what the Bible says, and what is left out. To get to the real truth you need 'outside the Bible' knowledge.
     
  16. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is cheap to debunk the Bible.

    This is about our individual interpretation of the Bible, as it is.
    No debunking required.

    Agreed?
    Gimmie a like :lol:
     
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  17. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever read Revelation chapter 22? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation22&version=RSVCE;ERV;NKJV;TLB;KJV

    After Judgment Day everyone who made it is kicking back in the gigantic golden cube with the God character on a waterless planet that does not have any darkness. The "saved souls" are God's flunkies. They are branded with his name on their foreheads. Hello, slavery. But they get to rule forever. So, what is up with the head branding and, who are they ruling?
     
  18. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So the truth is cheap. You prefer to believe in obvious falsehoods. Carry on. Personally I like the truth. The fact we have so many different sects is due to personal interpretation - not the truth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  19. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trevor thinks the Bible is a history book and he doesn't know God was in the world long before the Bible was written.. so sorry his lost his faith and that he only choses to post when he can refute the Bible. (check it out.. these are the only threads he post on) Wyrd is just.. wyrd, loves to do his best to provoke believers.
     
  20. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As a matter of interest I post on other forums and I posted on another thread until it finished. Your proof? All I can say he made an awful job of things. A world that destroys his creation with its instability, its illnesses, bacteria etc. etc. The Bible is just another religious book among other earlier writings. . Its beliefs all stem from earlier religions. You can scoff all you like but you can't answer my questions. All you know is what the Bible says. History and background knowledge denies some of the Bible. Tell me how Joseph and family could be in Egypt and Nazareth at the same time? Why did Joseph go to Bethlehem when the law told him not to? Why does the writer to Matthew put Joseph living in Bethlehem and. the writer of Luke have him living in Nazareth - where we know his business was. And where he needed to be for the census. Why is Jesus, the Jewish preacher, called Israel in Hosea 11 (used by the writer to Matthew to send Joseph to Egypt) and why did he sacrifice and offer incense to idols as is reported in the context of the Chapter. Incidentally, Hosea is about Israel, as is Isaiah. Study Luke's story of 'the house and lineage of David'. David had 20 sons that we know of. 1000 years later his family would have been enormous. Just think of hundreds of thousands of his descendants - men women and children, all descending on the small village of Bethlehem. Acc ording to 'Luke' all the world was to be taxed. So men of all nations and peoples would be going to their birth place. The whole Roman world would have been in chaos.

    You can scoff as much as you like. You have no idea of the 'real' Bible.
     
  21. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yeah .. I get it trevor.. you hate God and those who follow him.. Spend a lot of time debunking a Book of Theology (which has served Western Culture very well , I might add) You got anything better?
     
  22. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We come to discuss the wisdom and the verses in the Bible.. that is the intent of these threads.. not to battle a bunch of hateful non-believers.. and it must be hate, why else would you come here to p*ss all over our beliefs?
     
  23. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hate what god? There are hundreds of them. And some of my friends are Christians. I don't hate anyone. What I do hate is to see people who have been indoctrinated, who can't think for themselves, who take a written book as 'gospel' without studying.

    As usual my questions are ignored. You make all sorts of excuses for your god's supposed actions from killing innocent women and children and destroying those who don't believe in him.

    There is some wisdom in the Bible. That is obvious. My only wish is that you studied what the Bible is all about. Not what you think it is about. You have a closed mind when opening it would present a different picture. There's no reason why you should not believe in God and study. Many Christians accept the Bible has errors. I know ministers who don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but they maintain their belief in God.
     
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  24. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Some people just insist on making this place suck.
     
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  25. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And some people have no idea what they are really talking about. Don't worry, I'll leave you alone to your ramblings on a subject you know little about.

    Oh. You're just another group who have no answer to the questions I posed. Probably because I told the truth.

    Goodbye.
     

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