Melbourne bookstore selling photo of Hitler

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Poohbear, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Anti-Defamation Commission in Melbourne has sought to ban the sale
    of a photograph of Hitler. The photograph shows Hitler giving a gift to a girl.

    "The organisation's chairman Dvir Abramovich told SBS News that "profiting
    from this photo" was "offensive to the memory of Hitler's victims and also the
    survivors here in Melbourne".

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/melbourne-bookshop-under-fire-for-selling-disgusting-photo-of-hitler

    There are lots of problem here, the one that comes to mind is that Hitler did
    not start WWII so much as both Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland
    which led to England declaring war on Germany.

    Photographs of Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh and many other Communist
    leaders can be readily displayed and sold in Australia. Che Guevara t-shirts
    are quite popular. These men were responsible for far more deaths than
    Hitler.

    Are people being selective in their moral stance?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  2. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There should be no penalty whatsoever for possession, reproduction or sale of this image. I will gladly aid anyone in violating any such law. Doesn't matter what it is - Stalin, Hitler, FDR - I will happily spend weeks on end posting it all over the city to make a point.

    If they caution me I will ignore it. If they fine me I won't pay it. If they put me in prison I won't eat.
     
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  3. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    "Trying to sell." As I guessed, product is stocked and for sale, but are people actually buying photos of the worst mass murdering monsters of the 20th century?
     
  4. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One of things that might offend is that Hitler is showed in a pose of giving a gift to
    a child. Reducing people to monsters with no human merit isn't being truthful.
    Hitler DID love children, and dogs, and women --- and conservation parks, and
    this new idea of public freeways and cars for the common people etc.. Sure, he
    was incredibly cruel too - but let's not distort history. This is my issue with people
    wanting to pull down statues.
     
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  5. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    While I would agree with and defend the selling of this particular picture, I would do so on free speech and free enterprise grounds. I wouldn't even want the ADC to burn the picture as it has historical significance. But YOU seem to be defending it on completely different grounds, that Hitler "wasn't so bad". Please clarify.

    Germany invaded Poland at Hitler's direction. It would not have done so as the Weimar Republic. Ho Chi Minh killed far fewer people than Hitler, and Che Guevara's numbers were only in the thousands as he was never in a position to kill millions.
     
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  6. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Nazi memorabilia is big business.

    "Naturally, exact figures are hard to come by, but the market’s annual global turnover is estimated to be in excess of $47 million."

    https://nypost.com/2015/06/27/meet-the-man-who-owns-the-worlds-largest-nazi-collection/
     
  7. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Agree 100%
    I watch videos on WWII nearly every day. I find what the Germans did utterly shocking.
    (Japanese not much better, BTW)
    But there's redeeming aspects to Hitler, it's just that in the historical context they simply
    pale into insignificance.
    My issue is with people re-writing history.

    ps General Giap, Ho's top General, spoke of setting fire to the whole of Asia. Some of
    these goons didn't measure up to Hitler, but not for want of trying.
     
  8. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All true and I thank you for your comment, but to be fair Britain didn't exactly treat Poland well. They declared war claiming to defend Polish neutrality then sold them down the river to the SECOND worst mass murdering ******* of the 20th century for fifty years.

    The Soviet Union didn't have nuclear weapons until 1949.

    They should have done more to fulfill their stated primary war aim, and maybe that involved a similarly justified war with Stalin.

    Or maybe they should have stayed out of it altogether, I dunno. Certainly I can't justify one war without the other.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  9. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with the bookshop, I like my history un-sanitised/unfiltered, too much truth is swept away when trying to make history "acceptable" to all. Besides it's not as if he's trying to change the narrative or pretend Hitler is good etc. He's simply selling a rate photo. I can see the appeal in a historic and artistic sense... the monster hunched down in front of the little girl...
     
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  10. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but Britain couldn't defeat Germany alone, so as long as we weren't interested in going to war with Stalin, there wasn't much Britain could do. I honestly don't think there's been a time that we armed our adversaries in a "the enemy of our enemy is our friend" kind of deal that it didn't turn around and bite us in the ass. It happened with the Soviet Union, it happened with Afghanistan, and it happened with the Syrian rebels.

    p.s. Stalin was THE worst, not 2nd worst. Stalin's numbers are anywhere from 40-60 million dead. Or are you counting Mao as the worst? Mao killed somewhere around 30-40 million, making Hitler 3rd worst with around 20 million dead.
     
  11. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Once you hit a couple of million dead I feel it becomes about more than just numbers.
     
  12. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    I read an article by Mr Abramovich on the issue, and while I am sympathetic to the hurt such images undoubtedly cause, I don't see it as sufficient to ban sale. There might be an argument to be made about public display of such images under certain circumstances, but a private business selling them isn't covered by that.

    Hitler most certainly started WW2. Having been allowed to occupy parts of Czechoslovakia at Munich on the promise that he would cease his expansion he then occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia in early 1939 before moving on Poland months later. Hitler & the German state bear full & total responsibility for the consequences of those actions. They were offered a peaceful path and completely torched it.

    Stalin's behaviour was no better, but essentially reactive. There is plenty of evidence that Stalin was prepared to back the Czechs had war come in 1938, but having seen the Western Allies cave he decided to cut a deal with Hitler rather than wait for nations who couldn't be arsed talking to him to grow spines. His occupation of various parts of Eastern Europe and the invasion of Poland deserve full throated denunciation, but he wasn't the reason WW2 started. Not even a bit.

    Only Stalin & Mao killed more people than Hitler, and in Stalin's case it isn't a huge gap and it relies on not counting the dead caused by WW2 in Europe against Hitler. Lenin is the next closest, and while he did some terrible things, he is nowhere near Hitler despite having plenty of opportunity.

    Ho could be ruthless, but he wasn't remotely comparable to any of the above in either action or intent. Le Duan, who was probably more ruthless and certainly got more people killed, was still not in the same discussion as Hitler. In fact, if you don't include war dead they probably rack up about 50,000 between them.

    There is no universe in which Che (or even his mate Fidel) get into any comparison with Hitler other than they were male and one of them was a dictator. Che was barely capable of organising small groups of revolutionaries, so wide scale mass murder wasn't a remote possibility. I suspect that one of the reasons he remains a romantic figure is that he didn't hang around anywhere long enough to rack up a big body count.

    Yes, but the come in a number of forms.

    Nazism is a byword for evil with good reason. There isn't an alternate abstract version that doesn't end in lots of bodies. It really only came in the one flavour and didn't spread very far for very long. As a result it is pretty easy for most sane people to put in the 'bad' box - though if you read enough around here you will find a few folk who apparently think it was just fine. That means the symbols etc. have a narrowly defined & negative meaning.

    Socialism & associated ideologies were always a much broader movement that was already generations old when the Winter Palace was stormed. That doesn't diminish the evil unleashed by the Marxist/Leninist version, but it means it exists in a different context outside societies unfortunate enough to be ruled by one of its regimes. There was also the attachment of that ideology to anti-colonial struggles, which made it seem to some that it was/is a force for 'liberation'. None of that makes me any more well disposed to images of Communist leaders, but it does explain why the attitudes are sometimes different.

    On the other side of that double standard, there are plenty of 'ordinary' people who think Nazi memorabilia/uniforms/weapons/historical figures are 'cool'. Spend a bit of time on military history discussion boards and you are guaranteed to find young men from English speaking societies with Irwin Rommel avatars (a committed Nazi for virtually all of his career) who are as dedicated to the greatness of the WW2 German military as any Communist is the the historical dialectic. They somehow manage to divorce the 'Nazi' aspects of this from the military aspects and will fight to the cyber death for the greatness of German arms.

    I am yet to see any Communist equivalent for this outside very occasional Russian posters, whose emotional attachment to the Red Army might easily be explained by its role in preventing their grandparents from ending up in giant pits while the Nazis colonised their nation. I am not aware that the market for Communist memorabilia is remotely close to that for Nazi memorabilia.

    So, double standards of all sorts.
     
  13. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some in interesting points, thanks for that.
    I never meant to say that Gueva or Castro or Pol Pot were as bad as Hitler, but
    the sum of all the Communist rulers put Hitler in the shade.
    WWII technically began with Poland, I suppose. And Russia partook of that
    venture. Without America's support it could have been that Stalin finished what
    Hitler started, including taking Britain.
    Not clued up on the history but I read that Lenin himself wanted to start WWII.
    It's said that saw the USSR as getting weaker. He actually tried this didn't he
    when the Soviets invaded Poland in the 1920's or 1930's?

    re Hard left wearing Communist paraphernalia. Generally no, but possibly for a
    good reason. In "What is to be done" by Lenin, he said that a good Communist
    must not show himself to be a good Communist.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
  14. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Not looking to pick a fight, but the highlighted bit is about the most accurate thing here. History doesn't seem your strong suit.

    In order:

    Pol Pot is a fair comparison to Hitler given he was responsible for the death of about 20% of his nation's population in 3.5 years, though I've never seen pictures of him for sale anywhere. Not a fond memory for the comrades.

    Comparing the work of a collection of Communist dictators who had over a billion people to kill and several generations to do their killing to one guy who barely had a decade and many fewer people is pretty pointless. If you want to do that classify Hitler as one of a group of Nationalist/ethnic dictatorships - Chiang Kai Shek, Imperial Japan, Yayah Khan in Pakistan, Mussolini, Soeharto, Bashir & his predecessors in Sudan, Rwanda before & after the 93 massacres, WW1 era Turkey, Franco, Gowon in Nigeria & more besides. The numbers end up pretty similar.

    Russia only invaded Poland because Hitler was about to do so and Hitler's invasion sparked the war, not Stalin's. Hitler 100% started the war by himself.

    There is no universe in which Russia was going to invade the UK. None. Ever. In all of history.

    Further, without US help to Russia the war against Nazi Germany would have been much, much bloodier and longerfor Russia. By the time the Russians got to Germany they would have been fairly exhausted and not in much shape to attack whatever Allied armies were coming the other way (and by 1946-7 they would have been coming).

    Lenin (who died in 1924) was not interested in and made no attempt to 'start WW2' - not even a concept in 1919. During the Civil War Russia actually fought contingents from a number of nations including Britain, Japan, USA, Italy, Greece, France, Romania and numerous emerging republics & nations in Eastern Europe, the Caucases & Central Asia. There was no talk of 'WW2'. While many, not least Poles, like to talk up the 'saving of Europe' when they defeated Russia in 1920-21, this was just one of a succession of wars surrounding the birth of the nations of E.Europe. Russia was trying to secure a flank in the ongoing Civil War, support friendly Communist movements and keep as much of Ukraine as it could (this was essentially a war over Ukrainian territory). The fact that Russia got beaten up by a nation that didn't exist when the war started should tell you a fair bit about the inability of Russia to project power, even within territory it recently ruled.

    I have met plenty of Communists over the past 30+ years in a wide variety of settings and often in prolonged close contact. None of them were concerned about revealing that fact or waving the flag/wearing the pin to show it. If you think there are a bunch of Communists out there hiding their allegiance you are having yourself on. Nazi memorabilia is 'cool', especially with military buffs. Communist stuff isn't. I don't think the reason is political.
     
  15. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    dbl
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  16. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is in MY universe. Communism was imperialist in ambition. It ultimately controlled one third of the
    world. In its Chinese guise today it is still seeking to export the ideology, now wrapped in "Xi thought."
    Lenin did seek to take control of European Marxism movements through direct force. This is why his
    Soviet forces made it all the way to Warsaw. I did read once that Lenin saw the urgency of a forced
    Soviet offensive against Western powers while Russia was still relatively strong.
    IMO Stalin would not have stopped at Berlin had there been no USA forces. Why should he? It would
    have been the fulfillment of Lenin's dream. There was nothing to stop him controlling the entire continent
    and being in a position to challenge America militarily. Stalin owed it his own power aggrandizement and
    he owed it to Communism itself.
     
  17. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's different with Communism, isn't it? Fascists wear black shirts and Communists came as they were.
    Certainly back in the 1950's and before, many concealed their Communist links. Even when the Aust
    Communist Party was not banned many Commies did not acknowledge their links - why should they?
    They were in media, teaching, unions and the like. And like our own Pilger who proudly posed beside
    the Ho Chi Minh memorial, such people would rail against the Militarists, Capitalist and Imperalists whilst
    seeking the very same powers (and more) themselves.
     
  18. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    OK, so what these last two posts tell me is that YOUR universe has very, very little to do with what actually happens in the real universe. It also tells me that you didn't read my post very carefully - if the US isn't helping the UK it isn't helping Stalin, which makes a BIG difference. Good to know anyway.

    BTW, feel free to explain to me in detail how the USSR circa late 1940s, having lost millions upon millions of lives conquering Nazi Germany & Europe, then manages to invade Britain.

    A few things to keep in mind:

    1) It is a naval invasion. This is not a mere detail, but the crux of the issue;

    2) Handwaving and making stuff up does not count as evidence;

    3) I have detailed knowledge of Operation Sealion, so I have a extremely good idea what it would have taken to invade a vastly weaker Britain in 1940.

    Please argue your case. I like a good laugh.
     
  19. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    You are genuinely making this stuff up, aren't you. You seem to think there was some vast, hidden army of Communists out there when the reality was that after WW2 there were maybe a few thousand hard core believers left over from the 1930s period (and I'm probably shooting high here) who spent more time fighting each other than plotting to overthrow anything. After 1956 numbers tanked until a new generation popped up in the 60s off the back of some student radicalism. This lot were even less well organised than their predecessors.

    ASIO spent over two decades opening files on pretty much everyone who went to a Communist Party meeting of an anti-Vietnam demo. They opened files on people who just happened to know such people, even if there was zero evidence they had any left wing leanings. They tapped phones, opened mail, filmed and physically watched people. They infiltrated everyone worth infiltrating and many, many more who weren't. Then there were the State Special Branches, who were doing the same and worse - in SA they had files on every single ALP MP for decades. All those 'hidden' communists you have convinced yourself about simply weren't there.

    There were some Fascist Croatian militias training and sending men back into Yugoslavia. There were also people setting fires & bombs in buildings associated with the Yugoslav government. Curiously these terrorists, who weren't really hiding that well, were allowed to get away with all of this until Whitlam finally put his foot down.

    Anyway, I suspect that all this historical detail is a bit confusing, especially as it conflicts with your firmly held beliefs. We all know how that ends, and it isn't with a victory for the facts.
     
  20. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't mention numbers when it came to Communist Party members.
    The hard left (as opposed to soft left, of which I have been at times)
    have influence out of all proportion to their numbers. These days it's
    the cultural Marxists in universities who are influencing a whole new
    generation.
    And there's a lot more cultural Marxists than the old economic
    Marxists - and making a lot more headway in the West.

    This Pilger had a quote about the sinister influence of the media.
    He showed how he himself manipulated journalism for his own
    blatantly Marxist leanings - he was able to influence a whole
    generation of Australians to the Marxist view of Indochina.
    Instead of becoming like Sth Korea - Sth Vietnam became like
    Nth Korea.

    I have no doubt Palestine in particular will become the next
    area of interest to the Marxists - supporting the very people
    who oppose everything Marxism stands for, and hate our
    liberalism too. Starting already in the USA.


    johnpilger.jpg
     
  21. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My opinion only, at least in this case.
    Communism saw itself as the next great global empire. General
    Giap was honest is stating the Viet war is not about "liberating"
    Sth Vietnam, it's "setting the whole of Asia on fire" or words
    to that effect. Communism is about "liberating" nations - that's
    one of its remits. Thinking people did not expect the Communists
    to relinquish Eastern Europe after WWII. And the Soviets worked
    (till their fall) to destabilize Western nations. There's no argument
    there.
    The argument lies in whether Stalin would have stopped at Berlin
    if the Red Army fought Germany alone. Not for one minute would
    I believe Stalin would have stopped. And the Red Army, now with
    the Germans under control, would have made easy meat of the
    British. Germany came awfully close to doing that when it began
    a systematic attack on Britain's radars and airfields - only to be
    distracted by Hitler's "Blitz."
     
  22. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    OK, so the short answer is that you are just making stuff up & you don't have the slightest idea how the USSR circa 1940s would invade the UK. it just will. Because!
     
  23. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    I'm just going to slowly back away and leave you to rant by yourself.

    To call this stuff unhinged is to do a disservice to unhinged people. You seem to think that anything you say is true because you say it. I am handicapped by the presence of facts, so we don't have any common ground.
     
  24. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am happy to amend my beliefs if you show them to be wrong.
    I have done so before on this forum, and thanked people for
    filling in the gaps for me.
    :)
     
  25. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Clearly Australia is a white supremacist country and must be destroyed.
     
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