Attack Against Christendom

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kyklos, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When Jesus is referring to "Judge" he is speaking more in a legal sense. You are confusing the legal with the moral. When Jesus tells the crowd not to stone the adulterous woman - he is not condoning adultery by this act. What Jesus is doing is commenting on the punishment for that sin. And you are conflating the two.

    What Jesus is saying is that we are not force others to abide by religious beliefs through physical violence - (as in by passing sentence) Judge Jury and executioner.

    The golden rule is don't do to others what you don't want done to you. Treat others as you would be treated.

    The society that Jesus was preaching to was full of Pagans. Homosexual acts between men was fairly common among Roman society.

    If you don't want others forcing religious laws or beliefs on you through physical violence - don't do this to others. This is what Jesus was saying. This is what is meant by "don't Judge" or you will be judged in the same way you judge others.

    The adulterer had sinned. Jesus states this and this is a Judgment - he is not condemning Judgement in this way. What Jesus is condemning is the crowd taking it upon themselves to punish someone for this sin.
     
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  2. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Judging in the "legal sense" means to condemn. One can speak out against homosexuality without condemning anyone. It is their act that condemns them.

    I agree with your second line.

    I have no problem with what you conflate as a "golden rule".

    Jesus never preached to Pagans. He preached in the Synagogues. He preached to Nazarene's. He preached to all the various sects of the House of David. He did go through Samaria which was taboo to most Jews, however he did not preach there."He came to his own and His own rejected Him". Jesus did not address Rome and it's system. Remember.... Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is His". What I have said is true but it does not diminish the Love Jesus had for ALL people. He even jokingly told the Canaanite women "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs". In other words Jesus referred to the sons's and daughters of Abraham as the children. They are the ones He was addressing on His earthly mission. By faith, however, this woman was a benefactor of her daughter being healed. After Jesus paid the price....we can all be benefactors by Grace through Faith.

    You and I are on the same page as far as the word "judgement" I believe. I still stand by the premise Jesus did not address homosexual behavior because He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. They did not practice such behavior. The Apostle Paul and others, as they began their Gentile expansion, did address it to those that were not familiar with God's precepts. Jesus did have much to say about the unity between a man and a women. "It was that way from the beginning". If same sex marriages had His blessing, He would have mentioned it I'm sure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. I think it is a stretch however to claim that there were not gay Jews - or that such practices such as in engaging in homosexual behaviors (even if one was not gay) was never found among Jews. This would be an interesting question to research.

    Jesus in general did not seem much concerned with "vice" - and in context - sexual vice. He does not preach against pre marital sex, prostitution and so on. He does speak out against adultery but this is in a different category than the other vice referred to.

    Paul on the other hand was far more concerned about sexual vice. Paul was all about celibacy.
     
  4. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Paul was about "control over one's flesh". To Jesus, the law was a given. It is a starting place to know the will of God though we are unable to keep it in it's entirety. If there were Jews that acted out homosexual behavior, and there might have been, they certainly were not proud or boastful about it. Restraining the desires of the flesh is not an easy thing. That is why Jesus presented the opportunity to come out of bondage to it. That was the "fulfillment of the law".....it did not do away with it.
     
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not sure what you mean by "The Law" to Jesus the commands were a given ... the rest of Jewish Law - not so much - Jesus himself violated Jewish Law.

    I do not agree with your perspective that to come out of bondage to the law was the fulfillment of the law. I think you are confusing Paul with Jesus.

    Contrary to Paul - the salvation formulation given by Jesus includes works - doing good deeds and/or avoiding bad deeds.
     
  6. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you
    So you dismiss the teachings of Paul and the Apostles. I will not argue the point because I believe they fit like a glove and are inseparable.
    The dispensation of "Grace" at the event of Jesus' sacrifice delivered us from the bondage of the law. Grace comes through faith not works and works is evident through faith not through our own goodness but through the indwelling of Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have not dismissed them in this conversation - but - if you want to pit the teachings of Jesus against the teachings of Paul - in a conversation about the teachings of Jesus - I would take the teachings of Jesus over that of Paul.

    The fact of the matter is that Jesus says what he says - and Jesus stresses works as part of his salvation formulation - in the exact sermon you quoted from.

    If you want to debate sola fide "salvation by faith alone" we can do this but - this is not what Jesus says in the Sermon under discussion. The fact of the matter is that Jesus contradicts Sola Fide in this sermon.

    To be sure - I do not readily grant that Paul even accepted Sola Fide - although this is where the main support for the doctrine comes from - as he seems to contradict this doctrine in Romans 3.

    Regardless -I am OK with you taking Paul's words - as interpreted by Martin Luther some 1400 years later - as truth. The fact of the matter however is that Jesus contradicts sola fide - and James - Brother of Jesus and Leader of the Church of Jerusalem after Christs death - calls people that adhere to this doctrine foolish.
     
  8. Kyklos

    Kyklos Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh my! How the times are a chang'in. Benny Hinn is very popular in the Mid-West and South as a charismatic minister. I consider Pentecostal as Charismatic, and without any proselytizing many Catholics changed over to Fundamentalist Churches, or adapted Charismatic traditions to Catholic services. My poor, poor mother was attracted to Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, and Jimmy Swaggart at one time.

     
  9. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Jesus character did not start Christianity; the Paul character did. Paul established the Christian rituals and doctrine, based on the resurrection of Jesus.
     
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  10. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Bible uses the word adultery to mean the act of worshipping another deity. The woman in the story was probably caught worshiping at a Gentile temple or even worshiping the Jesus character himself, since he was going all over the place yakking about he was God's son and was the tree of life.

    The Mosaic law disapproved of homosexuality but approved of baby raping. On your scale of morality is homosexual acts between consenting adults more or less moral than baby raping?
     
  11. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Jesus character said that when a woman's husband died that she is supposed to marry his brother. If you believe in Jesus, would you marry your brothers-in-law in sequence when your husband died? If not, why care what Jesus said about marriage?
     
  12. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why would I ever reply to you? It would be such a waste.....
     
  13. Kyklos

    Kyklos Well-Known Member Donor

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    Or in other words, you have no idea whatsoever how to defend your beliefs, or how to rationally critique another worldview.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  14. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can refer to a point of scripture that is not meant to demean but it is a statement of fact.....
    "Do not cast pearls before swine because they will turn on you and tear you apart"
    Allow me to expand on that. If I obtain wisdom (and all wisdom comes from God) and I desire to share it with others for their benefit, then I must be aware of a few things. The biggest thing is there are those, waiting in ambush, that do not desire any wisdom other than what comes out of there own desires. Why would I subject that wisdom from being drug through the dirt? I do know there are those that will just placate wisdom and not internalize it.......but this is a different thing. It's a complete waste of time for those that are open to it.
    The Weird of Gawd is one of those waiting in ambush. It is obvious by his history. He is drawn like a moth to a flame to every Christian conversation and his only intent is to demean. It is obvious even by his choice of name.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  15. Kyklos

    Kyklos Well-Known Member Donor

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    Speaking of swine, and being aware of a few things....

    The Reverend Jerry Falwell Jr. at "The Wall" and it is not Jerusalem.
    [​IMG]
    Jerry Falwell Jr. is the son of a famous Christian Minister Jerry Falwell Jr. and founder of "Liberty University" in 1971.

    This University is a front for neo-Christian fascism much like the former President of the University of Northwestern, Minneapolis Billy Graham. Billy Graham began his career as a spokesman of a fundamentalist neo-fascist group lead by William B. Riley that believed in a racist theocracy. In 1902, Riley founded Northwestern Bible Training School, which in 1935 became the Northwestern Theological Seminary and Billy Graham was appointed as the leader. This is evidence that Riley and Graham shared the same philosophical beliefs. Riley was a vicious racist that participated in the lynchings of the South leading up to WWII. He preached sermons for the Fascist Silver Shirts (of the Silver Legion of America), one titled "Shivering is the Light of the Silver Shirts."

    But the retort today is "You should not criticize Liberty." ...Liberty University that is. See the article, "‘Someone’s Gotta Tell the Freakin’ Truth’: Jerry Falwell’s Aides Break Their Silence:More than two dozen current and former Liberty University officials describe a culture of fear and self-dealing at the largest Christian college in the world. by Brandon Ambrosino, September 09, 2019.

    Jerry Falwell Sr.'s ministry was originally based on Christian Fundamentalism just as Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, Joel Osteen, and others; but instead the Christian Right has led their sheep into the idolatry of racist nationalism, money greed, and self-righteousness masquerading as victim hood. It's hypocrisy. It's demonic.

    Sara and Trey partying with Dad at the Holy Wall.
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    With humans you'll always find scandal. My eyes are on Jesus.
     
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  17. Kyklos

    Kyklos Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, that way it's easier to pick your pocket.
     
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  18. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wise as a serpent, yet gentle as a dove.
     
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  19. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Except Paul claimed to get his teachings from Jesus, starting with his conversion experience. There is no difference between the theology of Paul and Jesus.
     
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  20. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Bunk, Billy Graham was a friend of Dr. M.L.King and took flak for insisting that his Southern crusades be integrated.

    I prefer the term 'Bible believer' over fundamentalist, Jesus was one of those.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  21. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    When you read the fairy you will see that the Paul character considered himself to be equal to or greater than the Jesus character. Paul used Jesus to sell his religion of resurrection. Remember what Paul said, if the dead do not rise then he was just full of BS. The only zombies I have seen have been in the movies.
     
  22. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Bunk, he never considered himself divine, and he called himself a bond servant of Jesus Christ.

    Oh, I see. What exactly did Paul gain? He said, "Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes, minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked."

    I want in on that action, LOL. He said if Christ did not rise from the dead our faith is in vain and we are the most miserable of creatures.

    Exactly, so why leave a cushy life and endure what he did for a lie? Would you?

    Circular reasoning, we know the dead do not rise, but only by ignoring contrary testimony, at least according to you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
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  23. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Paul was a crazy nut, based on the fairy tale. He suffered heat stroke, he was an animal killer, and a terrorist as well as a liar and thief. He also thought that he had the right to tell other people how to live and what to believe. If he chose to suffer for his delusions then he deserved his punishments.
     
  24. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you'e become completely unglued. Why don't you spend time dispelling Muslim theology?
     
  25. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    This thread is about Christianity, isn't it? I would never, ever, become a muslim but I suppose I could become some kind of Christian in fifty trillion years.
     

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