Christians; defend apocalyptic literature

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greenleft, Aug 20, 2019.

  1. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    There are parts in the Bible people like to call apocalyptic literature. In these books the message is overly cryptic and has numerous bizarre images presented to us. These books read like somebody hallucinating on drugs.

    These books most notably are Daniel and Revelation but can also include Zechariah and Ezekiel.

    Images described and metaphors include: creatures with multiple heads and eyes, the Kings of the North and South, Gog and Magog, a crumbling statue made of multiple substances, 666, the 144 000, the Mark of the Beast, falling stars and countless other weird imagery.

    Why would Yahweh throw his worshipers into paranoia and confusion? Everyone has their own private interpretations on what these things mean. People going to churches rely on their pastor who's guess is just as good as yours.

    Apocalyptic literature has produced date setter wackos like Charles Taze Russel and William Miller as well as Messiah claimants like Sun Myung Moon. The Bible does state that there will be false Christs, false prophets and false teachers but this is clearly to be expected with such strange cryptic language in the Bible.

    What's the point of all this? Why listen to your pastor or meditate on verses impossible to comprehend?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  2. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Seeing, they would not see. Hearing they would not hear.

    Not everything is meant to be interpreted literally. IMO, Revalations is a metaphor for the internal struggle, we all experience.

    Your title is funny, why would you think anyone needs to 'defend' anything?
     
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  3. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Some of apocalyptic literature may be a way of disguising criticism and resistance statements directed at the powers that be, particularly the Romans.

    The famous 666 when translated into Hebrew using Cabalism formulae becomes Neron Caesar, Nero.
     
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  4. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As with everything is the Bible(s), the "Word of God" is interpreted into whatever Christians want whenever they want.
     
  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One possibility is that the Ancient of Days the Father and the Ancient of Days the Mother / The Comforter / The Holy Spirit and
    Messiah Yeshua / Jesus........... to some degree perhaps are cooperating with Stanley Milgram Lucifer Satan and Azazel king of the Watchers and Lilith and the gang on the Left Hand Path.......... to produce reality films with deep psychological value in APPLIED MULTIVERSE THEORY/ NON LINEAR TIME?????!!!!!

    So in one time line....... world events work out in a pretty scary manner.......
    the evidence for this would be the boxes of knowledge in chapter five of Saved By The Light by
    near death experiencer Dannion Brinkley..
    ....... and in another time line... events work out in a manner that
    is far less violent and scary..............

    G-d and the angels are striving against boredom!!!!

    For example.......

    Romney and the White Horse Prophecy
    A close look at the roots of Romney's -- and the Mormon church's -- political ambitions

    The Latter day Saint prediction of a White Horse President could be turned into a method of
    addressing the potential one hundred trillion dollar meltdown in the seven hundred and ten trillion dollar worldwide
    Derivatives market but........ that would mean the various denominations of "Christianity" admitting that
    Latter day Saints are OBVIOUSLY CHRISTIANS.....which they don't want to do..................

    .... which could remind us of the Stanley Milgram Ph. D. research??????
     
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  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am cowardly...... and I want to see a ONE HUNDRED TRILLION DOLLAR
    diversion of Derivatives over to the metaphorical Priestly Bride of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus...........
    (as opposed to a 1929 style meltdown in the world economy......... a Bear market)!

    A near death experiencer gave an amazingly insightful summary of what that could look like:

    https://www.near-death.com/experiences/exceptional/howard-storm.html#a04
     
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  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes..... and one of the reasons why the fledgling Messianic Jewish community would make books like
    the Apocalypse so popular could be as a defence mechanism against the teachings of Judas Didymus Thomas
    (Doubting Thomas)....who apparently was teaching sayings of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus such as the following:


    Let's face it.......... the idea of having a deep empathy for people that you would prefer to hate........... is not an easy concept to market to the congregation!
     
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  8. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Are you familiar with the writings of Philip K. Dick? That sounds very much like him.
     
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  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think that you mentioned his name to me before... but so far I haven't read any of his stuff........

    When I was a teenager I was taught that when the Roman Empire enforced Messianic Jews, Messianic Gentiles and
    Protestants by various names to work on the Jewish Sabbath.... and instead observe the first day of the week.......
    this was the variation on the Mark of the Beast that was operational for about 1260 or so years in Europe.

    This is actually a quite good theory.... and makes the number 666 relevant centuries before it is possible for humanity to chip people!

    Aha... apparently I have seen some of the movies though that were based on his books.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_K._Dick
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  10. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, interesting

    By Protestants above do you mean non-Christians? Protestants didn't exist until 1517 or so I was always told
     
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  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Basically I mean obviously Christian heretics from the point of view of the ancient Roman Catholic Church who
    considered it heretical to so much as have a bath before the Jewish Sabbath..... .as at least one Roman Catholic woman got
    arrested for by the Spanish Inquisition due to the fact that her Jewish grandmother had gotten her into that custom....

    I am a former member of the Worldwide Church of God and we taught that there were groups that
    were a lot like us ever since the first century. If the statistic is accurate that there may have been around
    four hundred thousand Messianic Jews by the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt.......
    you can rest assured that they were very, very Jewish in their teachings and behaviour patterns....
    or...... their ideas would not have been popular among Jews of that time period.

     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  12. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The thing about apocalyptic literature is that it foretells of an apocalypse "end of the world" - and the sooner the better in the minds of some adherents.

    Religion has been used to control the raging masses for millennia. How to keep the people sedated was a serious question to Kings, Emperors and Pharaoh's of the past - something they spent a whole lot of time thinking about. The reason for this is because if the people rise up - they not only kill you but all your friends, advisers and family.

    This was part of what was considered "secret knowledge". Machiavelli was tortured and imprisoned for leaking some of these secrets.

    The use of religion to control people has evolved over the millennia. In ancient Egypt they had the concept of "maat" - like karma - at the end of days your deeds were measured on the "scales of justice". If you were found to light you were fed to the monster - and that was it .. your journey was done.

    While being fed to a monster is scary - being punished in the after life for an eternity is more scary. Increasing the fear factor was one of the ways in which the control techniques became more sophisticated.

    When the Christians got power they did something interesting. Instead of focusing only on deeds as requisite to avoiding a horrible fate - they transitioned into "belief" as a requirement.

    If one even so much as "questioned" or "did not believe" some human interpretation of some holy book - one would suffer the worst fate the mind can imagine. Eternal torture in the afterlife - for ever and ever and ever and ever .......

    This is a sophisticated mind control technique .. this fear gets lodged in the subconscious of the adherent. When the adherent comes across ideas or information that conflict with belief - the fear response is triggered. The adherent will try to avoid thinking about the "Bad Thought" - the thought that might lead to the bad place.

    This is called "thought stopping technique". Avoidance tactics can include - avoidance - just avoiding the bad thought - moving the goalposts and other tactics , outright denial "NO NO NO". A particular favorite is demonization of the messenger .. classic ad hom fallacy. Someone putting forth ideas that conflict with cult doctrine are said to be "Under the Influence of Satan".

    Those who are intentionally trying to increase the grip on the adherent will increase the fear factor as much as possible. "Satan is around every corner trying to trick you" .. Heretics will be thrown into the fire that never ends .. and so on.

    The cult leader will create a black vs white - good vs evil - God vs Devil - paradigm. Cult doctrine is "Good" - anything or anyone that conflicts with cult doctrine is "Evil".

    If you want to ramp the fear factor up even further - and get the adherent to take action - say killing in the name of God or it could be some lesser action ... you introduce an apocalyptic narrative. The end is coming soon .. there is little time. There is a war going on between the principalities .. between good and evil and you must choose now or be left behind to experience the horrible cups of God's wrath that will be poured out on the earth.

    If some evil infidel happens to be attacking your group or your nation - even better. This lends into the apocalyptic narrative. Then of course there is the reward for martyrdom in the name of the cause.

    Sorry to make a short story long but - there is really no other way to explain the purpose of the apocalyptic narrative.
     
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  14. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    Try the Jewish Book of Enoch for a whole lot of apocalyptic fun.

    Truth is, no preacher or biblical commentator has ever remotely understood the book of Revelation.

    There's going to be all kinds of presently unperceived and unknown surprises. It's the book of surprises.

    If you're a pan-millennialist it all pans out in the end.
     
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  15. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    That's all interesting, but that does not answer why Christians must meditate on passages about a pregnant woman and a scroll with seven seals (two things I did not mention in my OP!). Why the vague imagery to confuse people as opposed to a literal description of future events?
     
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  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To reinforce the brainwashing. You don't want to make defacto and specific predictions that people can understand. If those predictions did not come true - that would be a disaster.
     
  17. hudson1955

    hudson1955 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They defend the teachings of the Bible. They believe in a higher being.
    you can believe in Evolution and God at the same time. Get it?
     
  18. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    It's like the mystical opening soundtrack of Blues Brothers 2000. Who's that writin'?
     
  19. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Why do you believe in the Jewish version of the God character?
     
  20. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    That's a straw man argument if I ever saw one....
     
  21. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The book of Revelation is merely passages/images taken from the OT to which Jesus is added. The Sect of the Essenes used the same passages earlier, though they added mother earth to their book. The book of Daniel is not apocalyptic. The first part is just a story. It's full of errors concerning the Persian culture. In a Neo-Assyrian letter from an ousted court official named Urad-Gula to King Ashurbanipal, Urad-Gula asks for financial assistance and, in the course of this request, describes the royal court metaphorically as a den or pit of lions. The second part is written later and concerns the Maccabean period. It is historic. The Jews do not consider it apocalyptic. It comes under the heading of writings
     
  22. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    In terminology and how the Jews view Daniel you may be correct. However, fire and brimstone preachers, end date setters or doomsayers LOVE the book of Daniel because of all the odd metaphors sprinkled in to the story.

    The book contains the following: a tree that can be seen from all the earth (indicating a flat earth but that's another issue), a statue made of multiple materials gradually crumbling, Gog and Magog, The kings of the North and South and possibly more I just don't remember.

    I'm not debating you, I'm just pointing out what I mean by apocalyptic literature. If you have a more accurate way of describing Biblical texts specifically with strange metaphors like Revelation, Ezekiel and Daniel, do tell me.

    (btw, to somebody I'm ignoring: says the person who adds nothing to the conversation and uses Ken Ham as a source of wisdom!)
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  23. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One human's 'impossible to comprehend' is another human's 'personally interpreted.' Much in the Bible can be interpreted in different ways depending on the perspective of whom is reading it, and I believe it is meant to be so.

    I also believe we're not meant to be able to foresee the end times. Whatever happens, it won't be word for word from the Bible. If God wanted us to foresee the end coming in no uncertain terms, He would not have told us that Only He knows when it will happen.

    Personally, I think end times prophecies are meant to tell us how (and more importantly how not) to bring about armageddon. I think its likely we've been on the precipice of ending the world before, and veered away from it, in part to having seen some paralels between what we were doing and end times prophecies.

    Ultimately, I believe this world is ours now. Not God's. He left us to it, and it to us. We can usher in Heaven or Hell on our own depending on how we advance our technology, how we apply those advancements and how we decide to treat eachother. And we can burn or freeze or infect the world away if we so choose, and I think the Bible is telling us how to avoid that. Or at least imploring us to avoid that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  24. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    " Trust in the Lord with all you're heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight."

    If there is something in the Bible you don't understand why worry about it. There is plenty you do understand and aren't doing yet, focus on those and let God reveal the rest when you have a need to know.

    the bible defamation league which seems present here in large numbers is just here to make excuses for their own unbelief. that's fine just ignore them, they have nothing to add to the conversation due to their ignorance which we all once shared.
    To understand the bible you have to believe the bible. if you don't believe it you have nothing valuable to say about it from the perspective of what it all means.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
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  25. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Purely as a matter of interest how do we explain the numerous images, flying craft, visions of 'gods' in other nations like the early Japanese, Asian Indian, 'red Indian, Incas etc. Were they any the less real than the Biblical images, experiences etc. This is simply a rhetorical question.
     

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