Confronting the Gun Carnage in the US

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Natty Bumpo, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. Capn Awesome

    Capn Awesome Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2019
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    428
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes. Because you can't convinct someone of a crime they haven't committed. You can have someone watched, but you can't do anything cause you think someone might commit a crime.
     
  2. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,873
    Likes Received:
    73,626
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Yes and no

    Although conviction requires a court decision there are many temporary acts we can enforce first

    I.e. towing and impounding a car
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,873
    Likes Received:
    73,626
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Depends on your definitions

    If we are talking “persons” as in born then yes, if we are talking barely formed clumps of cells then no
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  4. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,873
    Likes Received:
    73,626
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Then why is the USA smuggling guns TO Latin America?
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  5. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That would be Obama...

    Because he's stupid?
     
  6. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    towing and impounding a car isn't based on a crime. It's just realizing that sometimes cars break down, and you need to get them out of the way. There is no felony or misdemeanor involved in that.
     
  7. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    11,445
    Likes Received:
    3,263
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "Popular support" is not relevant when the proposed "reasonable measures" violate the Constitution.
     
  8. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    26,993
    Likes Received:
    11,047
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am talking about people already born. There are lots of things that kill more people than guns, especially mass shootings.
     
  9. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,873
    Likes Received:
    73,626
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Yes and $229 billion would buy a LOT of remedies for those ills

    https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/08/mass-shootings-in-america-the-unavoidable-facts/
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  10. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    26,993
    Likes Received:
    11,047
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Mother Jones is the last place I would look for an unbiased look on anything.
     
  11. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    41,211
    Likes Received:
    14,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    None of the reasonable measures being proposed to reduce the firearm carnage that receive overwhelming public support violate the Constitution, and if any were to, they would be ruled unconstitutional.

    What do you believe are the factors that account for the United States having more firearms per capita by far than any other advanced nation on earth, and the United States having far more firearm fatalities per capita by far than any other advanced nation on earth?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    What do you theorize are the principle reasons for some states having so many more firearm fatalities than others?
    1. Alaska - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 23.0 per 100,000
    2. Alabama - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 21.4 per 100,000

    3. Louisiana - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 21.2 per 100,000

    4. Mississippi - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.8 per 100,000

    5. Oklahoma - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.6 per 100,000

    6. Montana - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.0 per 100,000

    7. Missouri - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 18.8 per 100,000

    8. New Mexico - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 18.2 per 100,000

    9. Arkansas - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 17.7 per 100,000

    10. South Carolina - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 17.7 per 100,000


    ... and the states with the least:


    50. Massachusetts - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 3.4 per 100,000

    49. Rhode Island - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.0 per 100,000

    48. New York - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.4 per 100,000

    47. Hawaii - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.5 per 100,000

    46. Connecticut - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.6 per 100,000

    45. New Jersey - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 5.5 per 100,000

    44. Minnesota - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 7.6 per 100,000

    43. California - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 7.9 per 100,000

    42. Maine - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 8.2 per 100,000

    41. Washington - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 9.0 per 100,000

    https://247wallst.com/special-report/2018/02/20/states-with-the-most-gun-violence-2/
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  12. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    26,993
    Likes Received:
    11,047
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The death rate in the US is about 8500 per 100,000. You are nearly four hundred times as likely to be die by something else besides firearms. Personally, I would rather die from a gun shot than most of them, especially getting beat to death with a club because I have no way to defend myself.
     
  13. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Or getting splashed in the face with acid, like they're doing in the UK. You don't die, but...

    note the gun grabbers still refuse to explain why they focus on gun deaths which they know are padded with tons of suicides and perfectly acceptable self defense, rather than murder.
     
  14. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    562
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    You didn't answer my question, love. What laws will a criminal actually follow?
     
  15. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,873
    Likes Received:
    73,626
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I did answer it

    Look up the criminal activity involving guns in countries where there is strict firearm legislation

    It’s lower much much lower

    Because if the easy availability is no longer there............
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  16. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah, we know the whole shlameal about guns. You're not looking at criminal activity, but just guns and hoping we're so stupid that we don't see that sleight of hand.

    Sorry, but this whole "OMG! There are so many gun deaths, so we have to do something about guns" could easily be replicated if you want. We could start talking about black crime.

    "OMG! Look at all of that black crime! We must pass legislation banning blacks from procreating!!!!"

    easy availability, dude.
     
  17. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,682
    Likes Received:
    4,171
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about convicting anyone.
    But if we follow that logic and someone pulls a gun in a crowded place, do we have to allow them to shoot before we try to stop it?
     
  18. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    94,819
    Likes Received:
    15,788
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Better guns are available in the US, if that ever changes the flow will reverse.
     
  19. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    41,211
    Likes Received:
    14,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are free to fantasize about being beaten to death with a club if you wish.

    Most Americans are more interested in confronting the horrific level of firearm fatalities in the US that far exceeds the rate in all other advanced nations, and responsible gun fanciers are breaking with the extremist element and siding with the People:
     
  20. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    41,211
    Likes Received:
    14,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Is there anyone willing to honestly address these two pertinent questions:

    1) What do you believe are the factors that account for the United States having far more firearm fatalities per capita than any other advanced nation on earth?

    [​IMG]

    2) What do you believe are the principle reasons for some states having so many more firearm fatalities than others?
    1. Alaska - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 23.0 per 100,000
    2. Alabama - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 21.4 per 100,000

    3. Louisiana - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 21.2 per 100,000

    4. Mississippi - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.8 per 100,000

    5. Oklahoma - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.6 per 100,000

    6. Montana - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.0 per 100,000

    7. Missouri - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 18.8 per 100,000

    8. New Mexico - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 18.2 per 100,000

    9. Arkansas - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 17.7 per 100,000

    10. South Carolina - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 17.7 per 100,000


    ... and the states with the least:


    50. Massachusetts - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 3.4 per 100,000

    49. Rhode Island - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.0 per 100,000

    48. New York - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.4 per 100,000

    47. Hawaii - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.5 per 100,000

    46. Connecticut - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.6 per 100,000

    45. New Jersey - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 5.5 per 100,000

    44. Minnesota - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 7.6 per 100,000

    43. California - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 7.9 per 100,000

    42. Maine - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 8.2 per 100,000

    41. Washington - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 9.0 per 100,000

    https://247wallst.com/special-report/2018/02/20/states-with-the-most-gun-violence-2/

    Last edited: Yesterday at 7:56 AM
     
  21. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    26,993
    Likes Received:
    11,047
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As usual, you skip over the real problems which I have discussed many times.

    These so called mass shootings account for a very small percent of deaths in the US. If I lived another ten thousand years, it would still be unlikely that you or I would be a victim of a mass shootings. It is simply not high on my priority of things to worry about. It is always tragic when someone dies unnecessarily. That applies to drugs, alcohol , auto accidents and countless other ways we are much more likely to get killed.

    If the second amendment is revoked, only the law abiding will immediately give up their guns. That lawless will hang onto their's for a period of time, probably years or decades. My wife and I, both around eighty, live many miles from law enforcement with no close neighbors. The nearest house we can see is about two miles away. We are on the back road to a national park where drinking and drug use is common. For one reason or another, strangers knock on our door and we answer it. We do have a door and storm door arrangement which allows us to see and talk to them without them being able to easily break in. But they will fairly quickly realize that we are alone and relatively vulnerable. Whether they break in with guns or clubs makes little difference. We would be at mercy to a younger group of people.

    I would rather die by a gun than be beaten to death, but that is not the real issue. The real issue is that ultimately revoking the Second Amendment might save lives, but during a very long period, it would put a large number of us in danger.
     
  22. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    26,993
    Likes Received:
    11,047
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Are you willing to honestly address my pertinent questions?

    Given our unique circumstances what are my odds of my wife or I being being murdered with and without the Second Amendment? Not the odds for my state, but the odds of my wife or I being murdered?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  23. Capn Awesome

    Capn Awesome Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2019
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    428
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, its called 'clear and present danger'

    It's already well defined.
     
  24. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    41,211
    Likes Received:
    14,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, the real issue is that Americans, overwhelmingly, want to feel safer for themselves and their children, most gun owners included, and want their elected representatives to respect the democratic will, not kowtow to special interests.
    Your proposal to revoke the Second Amendment is not a realistic one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  25. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    41,211
    Likes Received:
    14,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am not aware of any credible threat to the Second Amendment, and would vehemently oppose it if there ever were.

    Again, why do you think the likelihood of you or your wife being shot to death is so much higher in some states than in others?

    1. Alaska - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 23.0 per 100,000
    2. Alabama - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 21.4 per 100,000

    3. Louisiana - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 21.2 per 100,000

    4. Mississippi - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.8 per 100,000

    5. Oklahoma - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.6 per 100,000

    6. Montana - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 19.0 per 100,000

    7. Missouri - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 18.8 per 100,000

    8. New Mexico - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 18.2 per 100,000

    9. Arkansas - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 17.7 per 100,000

    10. South Carolina - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 17.7 per 100,000


    ... and the states with the least:


    50. Massachusetts - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 3.4 per 100,000

    49. Rhode Island - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.0 per 100,000

    48. New York - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.4 per 100,000

    47. Hawaii - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.5 per 100,000

    46. Connecticut - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 4.6 per 100,000

    45. New Jersey - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 5.5 per 100,000

    44. Minnesota - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 7.6 per 100,000

    43. California - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 7.9 per 100,000

    42. Maine - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 8.2 per 100,000

    41. Washington - Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 9.0 per 100,000

    https://247wallst.com/special-report/2018/02/20/states-with-the-most-gun-violence-2/
     

Share This Page