New Study Finds Transgender Athletes Have Advantages In Women's Sports

Discussion in 'Gay & Lesbian Rights' started by kazenatsu, Sep 29, 2019.

  1. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, what you are telling me is that you do not believe that men have higher levels of testosterone than women. Nice.
     
  2. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    This tells us you can't read or want to use strawman arguments. You made the claim that lesbians have higher testosterone than straight women. That is the claim we are calling you out on. Quote where anyone has claimed that men do not, as an average, have higher testosterone than women, as an average, do.
     
  3. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Actually I do believe that men have higher levels of testosterone. I believe that thanks in large part to school health class, scientific journals, TED lectures, random wanderings on Wikipedia, college courses, etc.

    The problem is that you are arguing that a certain segment of female H. Sapiens (homosexual women) has more testosterone than another segment of female H. Sapiens (heterosexual women), not that men have higher levels than women.

    And that sort of claim needs to be backed up with some source that further explains your point. .

    Or given your quote of...

    ...it seems as if you might be mistaken in your use of terminology and are confusing "Lesbian" (which is a biological female that just happens to be romantically and/or sexually attracted to other women) with "Male to Female Transgender" (which is male that is believes that they are in the wrong body and are transitioning to being as female as they can be given biology and technology).
     
  4. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It seems to me that you haven't actually read what it is that I wrote.
     
  5. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Let's review:
    Highlight originally yours.
    And here is your first explicit assertion that lesbians somehow have higher testosterone levels that straight women. An assertion that you have yet to back up.
    Underlining mine since you already used bolding. Here again you make the claim that somehow lesbians have higher testosterone levels than straight women, but again with no support to your assertion.
    This is about the point that you must have realized that you backed yourself into a corner since you decided to claim I was wasting your time instead of actually showing evidence to support our claim. Feel free to provide additional quotes if you think I have not represented he thread thus far accurately.
    Then Skruddgemire also noted that you were making a claim that somehow lesbians have more testosterone than straight women, and he also asked for some kind of documentation to back that up. To which you responded:
    Nowhere in his post is such a claim made. Quote it if it is there and I will publicly apologize and acknowledge I was wrong. Good luck.
    We both noted that such an argument was not made by anyone, and that the testosterone levels of men compared to any women were not in question. You are the one making a claim about testosterone levels in two different types of biological females, straight and lesbian. It is that difference that we are asking you to back up. Not a strawman of men's testosterone levels being higher then women's.

    You sir, are the one with the reading comprehension issue. Prove to us otherwise.
    I'm putting down a $10 bet that you will dodge.
     
  6. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Oh really?

    Then Maquiscat said...

    To which you replied...

    The implication being that you believe that homosexual women have higher testosterone levels than heterosexual women.

    So since that how we are seeing your comments, you need to either clarify your position to end the confusion or provide the sources that you made your assumptions from.

    That or evade again.

    I'll drop a tenner on that with ya.
     
  7. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes really.
     
  8. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    And there's the dodge. Nailed it.
     
  9. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    And your "Yes really" response isn't a waste of time? We've tried to get you to discuss your belief that homosexual women and heterosexual women have different levels of testosterone...but you can't seem be bothered to do more than grade school levels of response.

    If I want to play "Uh-Huh-Nuh-uh" with someone, I'll talk to my three-year-old grandson.
     
  10. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I really do not know what your problem is. I can guess but that's not my hobby. Let me make something very clear to you. I wrote in plain English. I even used bold text just for the purpose of avoiding such 'misunderstandings' (if that's what it is) like this one. My final advice is that I am not a nurse-maid: not yours or anyone else's. If you are really interested in what I said you will have to go back and read my post, otherwise ..... carry on as you were. Just between the two of us :arrow: I don't care one way or the other. Have a nice day.
     
  11. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    My problem is that from reading your posts...you are making the claim that lesbians have higher testosterone levels than straight women.

    I disagree and have asked that you provide documentation backing your point of view. You know...the sort of things that are supposed to happen in a debate site?

    I hate to use them as a shining example, but at least the Flat-Earthers will provide documentation for their claims. Granted it's typically pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo at best...but at least they make the effort.

    If you are not willing to defend your position, why are you here?
     
    Maquiscat likes this.
  12. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    And there is the dodge again. You made the claim, you need to back it up.
     
  13. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I made my position clear but you are letting your imagination run wild and you are being swept away by absurd conclusions. (note the bold text again) If you would pay better attention (and quit side-stepping) you would learn something. The brutal truth is that it is not my job to teach you anything so if you choose to resist my message (and it's OK for you) then it's OK for me. It is true that I could lead you by the hand but I am very sure that you are not really interested. I think you just want to keep confusing the issue. That's OK too but I'm not dancing to your shots near my feet.

    Ps. I did notice that you didn't respond to my previous post to you. Very revealing it is too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
  14. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Let's recap...

    Yes I'm ignoring the part of your argument that AMAB (Assigned Male At Birth) women would have an advantage over lesbians. That is being ignored because it's not part of your argument that I disagree with. I agree that the transgendered would have an advantage in sports against women. I don't disagree with you there because even the transgendered community agree that it's an unfair advantage.

    So I'm ignoring that point since WE @#$%ING AGREE! What I don't agree with and wish that you would provide the reasoning behind the belief...is that somehow one narrow segment of biological, genetic, born as and still consider themselves women have more of a specific hormone than the rest of biological, genetic, born as and still consider themselves women do simply because they prefer the romantic and sexual company of other women as opposed to men.

    That is the problem. That is the point that we are not clear on. That is the point that I want to understand why in the name of Zeus's posing pouch you are claiming this. What is your reasoning? Where did you hear this? Was it from a Wikipedia article? A scientific paper? A website? A TED Lecture?

    THAT is what I'm asking for. You are making what to my mind (and to the mind of at least one other) an extraordinary claim and nothing I've found in my searches on the web have found anything to back up your claims. In fact, I've found papers that say that there is no difference.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3666687

    Now...do you want to keep on playing this silly game or do you want to actually raise this discussion to something worthy of being on this board?


    Which post didn't I reply to? The "Yes really." one? I seem to recall my saying...

     
  15. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're just another guy trying to waste my time. Bye.
     
  16. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    I posted a scientific paper defending my viewpoint. Nut up or shut up.
     
  17. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Lets see because they are still MEN competing as women of course they have advantages over biological WOMEN who are proper women.
     
  18. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    The problem that the two of us are having is not that we disagree that transgendered women are biologically men and as such would have a distinct advantage over CIS women in sports. In fact just the opposite. We agree that such is the case and in fact the transgendered community openly admits that it's a problem they're having in that they would love to have trans women compete in sports but acknowledges that thanks to biology, the advantage is unfair.

    The problem is that at one point he said that lesbians have more testosterone than straight women have. Please note...

    So Thingamabob is saying that there are three different levels of testosterone in the groups that me mentioned. At the lowest point is CIS Straight Women, above them are CIS Homosexual Women, and above them are AMAB (Assigned Male At Birth or Male-to-Female) Trans Women.

    While I do agree that the trans women are at an advantage...I disagree (and have even produced a scientific paper of a study that backs my argument) that there is a hormonal difference between straight and gay women.

    And that is what I'm having a problem with. I and Maquiscat have asked him to defend his viewpoint that gay CIS women have a sports advantage over straight CIS women due to a difference in testosterone levels. We make points, he makes evasions.
     
  19. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Exactly. How anyone can deny it is silly.
     
  20. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    Ok...Let's back up a bit and regroup.

    I'm going to ask you a simple question and your answer might help clear up the problem we are having here.

    What is your definition of a lesbian?
     
  21. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Are lesbians men? Because we are trying to verify his claim that lesbians have higher testosterone levels than straight women. Review the posts. Show me even one quote where we have denied that trans women (male to female transgenders) have higher testosterone levels than cis women (genetically female). You won't be able to because no one is making that claim.

    Thingamabob, on the other hand is making a claim that lesbians, who are as female as straight women, somehow have higher testosterone levels. Are you agreeing to his assertion?
     
  22. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Four days, and still no one can tell us how lesbians somehow have more testosterone than straight women?
     
  23. Skruddgemire

    Skruddgemire Well-Known Member

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    I've given up on this thread. Thanks to Thingamabob, I'm seeing more dodges than a Chrysler dealership.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  24. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    The study has a total of like 30 people in it. That's not a good sample size.
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sometimes women can have naturally unusually elevated testosterone levels. (more common for women of African ancestry)

    [​IMG]
    South African athlete Caster Semenya.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019

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