Universal Healthcare

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Robert E Allen, Oct 20, 2019.

  1. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    Probably not, but your advocacy for a disastrous left-wing course cannot be defended on principle, nor in terms of gaining some tactical advantage.

    You're essentially saying - "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

    Pandora's box is already open, and our collapse is inevitable; but, helping the fools on the left achieve their goals, is certainly not going to do any good.
     
  2. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    And we will save a bundle?
     
  3. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    No, im saying universal healthcare is coming like it or not.. conservatives should be crunching their brains to figure out thr best way to do it before the Democrats come up with something insane.
     
  4. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    You're missing the point - universal HC IS insane.

    Government control of people is insane - yet throughout history people keep walking into the same trap over and over.

    It's amazing to watch actually... mind-boggling.
     
  5. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    The actual surgeons wouldn't, but the billing department certainly would, and that filters up to the doctors when they're told that the hospital isn't bringing in enough money, so staff cuts are going to have to be made, and of course that means the most expensive surgeons and specialists will have to be replaced.

    There's also quite a bit of paperwork that medicare/medicaid require from the doctors in order for the hospital to get paid.
     
  6. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    I agree but what i am saying is that Republicans can't stop it from happening. Next time dems have the house, senste and white house they are doing it and they will bankrupt us. And they believe in strong government control.
    We need to head them off at the pass to avoid as much damage as possible.

    That's all i am saying.
     
  7. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Who will? Individuals? Surely, yes.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Either I'm confused, or you are!

    Our hospitals are public institutions. They are not 'for profit'. They don't care how much they make .. because technically they don't 'make' anything. They're funded by the tax payer.

    Of course, we do have private hospitals, but they're not used by the majority. And of course, since they're private, they service the privately insured.
     
  9. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    How does public health 'control' people?
     
  10. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    What gets me is that health insurance is one of those things that the democrats trot out every 4 years like clockwork. What is it about healthcare that has them talking as if this is some human right, while they drive past people sleeping on the street because they can't afford a place to live? Yeah, that dude sleeping in a puddle of urine is going to just love being able to go into a hospital and get treated for some disease he picked up from the rats he lives with...

    They talk about free healthcare, education, global warming, but don't see those people who would probably have a better quality of life if they lived on death row in a prison. supposedly I'm the heartless buttmunch who doesn't care about people, and I guess that's true enough. I'm just so used to seeing really messed up situations that I just can't care anymore about universal basic income.
     
  11. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    No. It's not coming because we can't afford it. And we need to do a better job of making the case for the free market. Because socialized medicine is the rule almost worldwide, the United States is the last place where medical research is still taking place, with the US taking a larger and larger share every year of new medicines and surgical procedures and techniques, because the US is the only place where discovering something new pays.

    Now, the way to cover everyone isn't to do it through universal healthcare but to offer a state pool like is done for high risk drivers. It's partially subsidized by the state but is also paid for by the person who is covered. This gives the person who is covered an incentive to take care of his own health and not rely on the government to do it for him, and making sure the cost of the state provided insurance is high encourages people to find their own private insurance. The free market is trying to fill in the gaps with low cost local clinics and whatnot, but as long as the government keeps getting in the way, the free market cannot solve the problem. Get the government out of the healthcare business by privatizing Medicare, making Medicaid strictly means-tested, and spin off the VA into its own business so that it has to compete with other medical facilities. The free market works, it just hasn't been allowed to since at least the Johnson administration.
     
  12. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Hospitals can be either non-profit or for profit, but that really doesn't matter very much. Healthcare providers work for moolah. Call that profit or whatever you want to label it as, but they work so they can get some money in their pockets to pay for bills, beer, and broads.

    Let me ask you, do those private hospitals hire the best staff they can find? Or do they hire the cheapest staff they can find?
     
  13. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Our Specialists work in both systems, not one or the other. But generally speaking, our private hospitals rank lower in terms of staff to patient ratios, equipment, facilities, sanitation regimes, etc etc. As even the rich here say, "never go to a private hospital if your life depends upon it". Instead, the rich have their surgeries at a public hospital, then transfer to a private for recuperation (just to get that private room).
     
  14. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Well okay, then that definitely rules out HK, which is a hell on earth in public hospitals, and heaven in private.
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some conservatives are doing just that -. KOCH Bro's for example.
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We can't afford not to ... socialized medicine is roughly half the cost of our current system .. 3.5 Trillion in 2017. Combining bureaucracy with Corporate Oligopoly is why we pay near double .. legalized extortion.

    The "Free Market" argument is spoon fed propaganda fed to people by the Establishment international financiers in hopes of diverting attention from the real problem.

    Prove the above claim.
     
  17. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    Government control is just that. If the government controls something relating to my life, then I do not have control of that aspect of my life.

    Bureaucrats and bean counters telling me everything about how I will receive, in the most inefficient way possible, services that I am forced to pay for whether I receive them or not.

    The government says who I can see, IF I can have a surgery, how long I must wait for treatment, where and how I convalesce, etc.

    And it's all wickedly expensive and inefficient.

    Moreover, to control costs b/c they have now artificially driven up demand, they necessarily have to pay healthcare workers less than the market would otherwise yield.

    Others "remedies" to high costs are to delay or deny service.

    It always comes down to economics and human nature. Free markets always deliver goods and services more effectively, efficiently, and with better quality than government can.
     
  18. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    We certainly can afford not to, since we can't afford to do it. Getting rid of socialized medicine is the only way to bring costs down. Here's how it works:

    Patient A can only afford to pay $100. The Doctor wants $200 but takes the $100 he can get.
    Government comes in and agrees to pay the Doctor the extra $100. Patient A pays $100, Government pays $100.
    Doctor now realizes he can raise his rate. The Doctor now charges $300.
    Patient A can still only afford $100. The government is now compelled to raise its payment to $200.
    Doctor raises his rate again. The Doctor now charges $400.
    Patient A can still only afford $100. The government now pays $300.
    Now the free marketeer comes in and shuts off the government payment for services. The doctor still wants $400, but Patient A can still only afford $100. The Doctor takes the $100 he can get and prices come back down to normal.

    [​IMG]
    "The percentage of all NCE’s (New Chemical Entities) that originated from U.S.-based companies rose from about 31 percent in the ‘70s and ‘80s to 42 percent in the ‘90s to 57 percent in the 2000s."

    https://xconomy.com/seattle/2014/09/02/which-countries-excel-in-creating-new-drugs-its-complicated/

    Notice the severe drop off in new medicines during the 1990s when Hillary Clinton, et. al., were demonizing pharmaceutical companies, but the US is still sourcing most of the new drugs.
     
  19. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    My daughter broke her arm a week ago Saturday.

    In the span of less than 2 hours we had driven to urgent care, gotten xrays, gotten a temporary cast put on, and were back home in time for dinner.

    On Monday morning we got right in to see an orthopedist, who assured us it should heal fine without surgery, and she received an acrylic cast. That appointment took about 45 minutes.

    The problems in American healthcare are all generated and amplified by government interference in the marketplace.

    Left to it's own devices, free markets, and freedom in general are always preferable to government bureaucracy.
     
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  20. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    and you're wrong. They'll keep pushing for this nonsense like they have done since forever. You don't beat the enemy by joining them and hoping for better surrender terms. You beat them by kicking their asses!
     
  21. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully you realize that you aren't preaching to the choir. We don't believe your math, so you'll just have to do it on your own. I highly doubt even you believe your own math, but that's irrelevant. The hard cold cruel reality you have to deal with for the foreseeable future is that nobody is going to believe you when you talk about how it's going to be greater later.

    Sorry boss, but just... no!
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) We are currently paying (as of 2017) 3.5 Trillion dollars for healthcare. If we adopted a European model straight across - which costs roughly half .. the savings are well over 1 Trillion dollars per year.

    2) You said there as "No research" going on in other nations ... obviously - from your Data - this is not the case. Further - China and other nations are doing loads of research - where is this on your list ?
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its not my math .. It is no secret that we pay roughly double what other first world nations pay on a per person basis.
    The Conservative Case for Universal Healthcare
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-conservative-case-for-universal-healthcare/
     
  24. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    1) As I have pointed out elsewhere, European nations don't have 34% of their population as black and Hispanic. Going to a European model isn't going to save money unless you start rationing care, something that isn't necessary under our current, if flawed, system. And the OMB itself estimates the cost of universal healthcare at 9 trillion dollars, more than 2.5 times as much as we're paying now, and 2.5 times our entire current budget of 4 trillion dollars. And from my own analysis of previous "low cost" programs, the final cost of new government programs ends up being nine times larger than the OMB's estimates, meaning the actual cost would be more like 81 trillion dollars, more than four times our entire GDP of 19 trillion.

    2) Let me know when they come up with anything useful.
     
  25. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    sigh...

    nobody believes you. If we did, you would have been able to have this back in the 90s when Hillary was promoting Hillarycare.

    Just... honestly, just stop. Nobody believes you! It's tiresome listening to the same lies day in, week in, month in, year in.... It's just BS now.

    Just stop this nonsense because it's really really really really boring now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019

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