Hamas fires rockets at Israel

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Poohbear, Sep 6, 2019.

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  1. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    your continued abuse deserves no replies.
     
  2. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's expected from somebody mentally incapable of debating honestly.
     
  3. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Poohbear Finklestein on his people and the holocaust .


    https://mondoweiss.net/2017/06/six-day-war-finkelstein/

    What Finkelstein does do is criticise strongly the use of the Holocaust to get support for Israels cruel actions against the Palestinians.

    Did you know that prior to the 50's the Israelis use to look down on the holocaust survivers even calling them 'soap'.

    Zioinism was not supported by the majority of Jews even after the Holocaust. It was only after the 6 day war that Orthodx Jews and Christian Zionists believed it was an act of God and being a Zionist was considered a plus that this happened.

    They overwhelming did not want to go to Israel after the Holocaust.




    In the Shadow of the Holocaust: The Struggle Between Jews and Zionists in the Aftermath of World War II

    There used to be a free pdf on this. Probably still is if you have time to search. Am I wrong in believing that you yourself are a Christian Zionists and hence have an agenda in presenting false propaganda. It may be that you are just going by what you have been told but that is all filled with fake news and needs much more study if you want to know what is true and very definitely requires that before you believe you are in a position to call a Jew who lost almost all his family in the holocaust and whose father was on the death march, an antisemite.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  4. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That should have been 'prior to the 60's' above, not 50's. In fact the 67 war.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  5. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is this correct?


    While the Syrian military bombardment and terrorist attacks intensified, Nasser’s rhetoric became increasingly bellicose.
    In 1965, he announced, “We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand; we shall enter it with its soil saturated
    in blood.”(4)

    Again, a few months later, Nasser expressed the Arabs’ aspiration: “[el] the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian
    people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the state of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might.
    The national aim: the eradication of Israel.”(5)


    After evicting the UN peace forces Nasser said


    As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more.
    We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will
    result in the extermination of Zionist existence.(6)


    An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad:


    Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode
    the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe
    that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.(7)


    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/background-and-overview-six-day-war
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  6. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh the great Norman Finkelstein... So intelligent, so cultured. He gave the world such wonderful prose like this one following the Charlie Hebdo mass shooting:

    "
    On the shooters of the Charlie Hebdo shooting on January 7, 2015, Finkelstein commented two weeks later:

    So two despairing and desperate young men act out their despair and desperation against this political pornography no different than Der Stürmer, who in the midst of all of this death and destruction decide it's somehow noble to degrade, demean, humiliate and insult the people. I'm sorry, maybe it is very politically incorrect. I have no sympathy for [the staff of Charlie Hebdo]. Should they have been killed? Of course not. But of course, Streicher shouldn't have been hung [sic]. I don't hear that from many people."[100]"

    Such great character! A bastion of all that is good on the pro terrorist/pro BDS club whose members haunt this forum.
     
    Pisa likes this.
  7. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It should be pretty obvious even to the casual observer that Israel's FOREIGN Zionist terrorist gangs and FOREIGN militant colonists have used their "Provoke-then-massacre" M.O.(1) to steal Arab land as far back as 1948.


    (1) "Moshe Dayan, in his diaries said: "Our strategy was always to provoke the Arabs and get an appropriate response so we could attack and smash them."

    http://www.sott.net/signs/signs154.htm
     
  8. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is this correct?

    While the Syrian military bombardment and terrorist attacks intensified, Nasser’s rhetoric became increasingly bellicose.
    In 1965, he announced, “We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand; we shall enter it with its soil saturated
    in blood.”(4)

    Again, a few months later, Nasser expressed the Arabs’ aspiration: “[el] the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian
    people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the state of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might.
    The national aim: the eradication of Israel.”(5)


    After evicting the UN peace forces Nasser said


    As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more.
    We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will
    result in the extermination of Zionist existence.(6)


    An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad:


    Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode
    the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe
    that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.(7)


    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/background-and-overview-six-day-war
     
  9. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can and have supported my assertions with credible sources stating that Israel's generals eagerly pushed for war which both they and US Intelligence Services were certain Israel would win.

    The Zionist agenda of an Greater Israel dates back to the early 1900s:


    "From the beginning, Zionists advocated a "Jewish State" not just in Palestine, but also in Jordan, southern Lebanon, and the Golan Heights as well. In 1918 Ben-Gurion described the future "Jewish state's" frontiers in details as follows:

    "to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan" (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 87) Click here to view the "Greater Israel" map that was submitted by the Zionists to the peace conference after WWI." (1)



    (1) Expansionism (or The Greater Israel)
    https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story695.html
     
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have no idea whether your hearsay is correct. You would need to provide links of the person saying it.
    Both Israel and Syria were fighting over the land Israel was trying to take from the Syrians because of the water it had...so yes there was fighting going on but to suggest it was all the Syrians is not honest.

    Most of the Syrian attacks according to Moshe Dayan were the result of Israeli
    provocations
    https://isreview.org/issue/59/unmasking-six-day-war


    What you are speaking about now is your hearsay. The Arabs in any case are known for their ott rhetoric and it appears Egypt was up to some. Trying to use that to suggest the war was caused by Egypt is just pathetic propaganda.

    However lets look at the Egyptian position. I have already provided you with material indicating they did not want war. You have ignored that believing claiming that people said something and what they said meant something else is more relevant.

    Egypt had to make a move because it had an agreement with Syria for mutual protection. To continue with the article on Tom Segev's

    What is more important is that archives, letters, records, diaries, minutes of Israeli Cabinet meetings show that Israel had originally intended to take this land in 56 and having not been able to due to the US response was determined to have another go. They also and I have read this in several places felt intimidated by Nasser and wanted to destroy him. Egypt were in any case very weak at this time having been involved in the Yemen war against the Saud's - the Sauds wanting to destroy Egypts position.



    The article carries on writing much of what is officially said - they understood that their attack on Syria would demand Egypt attack - and of course they knew that before such an attack. They believed if the straits were shut they would have to go to war...however they also knew they did not have to go to war

    https://isreview.org/issue/59/unmasking-six-day-war
    The 67 war of Israel against the Arab states was a colonial war in order to get the land Israel tried and failed to get in 56. After that Israel expelled another 450,000 Arabs from their homes and I can provide you with a video of Jews who fought in that wars disgust at being made to treat people as they had been treated. Israel has been keeping the Palestinians prisoner for over 50 years becoming increasingly inhumane as Israel becomes more obviously ethnic nationalist and wanting the others land.


    Israel and her friends have pretty much destroyed the ME. I hear many of the CZ's would like a genocide on Arabs.

    (kids coming. I don't have time for more of this just now)
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  11. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, this is correct.
    The next time this situation comes around the Jewish state should do to the Arabs what
    the Arabs promised to do to them.
    This is all public knowledge. I remember it in the news at the time.


    “We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand; we shall enter it with its soil saturated
    in blood.”(4)

    "In other words, we aim at the destruction of the state of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of
    Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel.”(5)


    "
    The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of
    Zionist existence.(6)

    "The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time
    has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.(7)

    (4)Samuel Katz, Battleground-Fact and Fantasy in Palestine, (NY: Bantam Books, 1985), pp. 10-11, 185.
    (5)Netanel Lorch, One Long War, (Jerusalem: Keter, 1976), p. 110.
    (6) Isi Leibler, The Case For Israel, (Australia: The Globe Press, 1972), p. 60.
    (7)Ibid.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ignoring what was said is a form of dishonesty. I get it you believe any excuse can be used to massacre Arabs and Muslim.They talk so ruthlessly massacre their women and children and while they are at it make sure that they get all of the ME which is in the Christian Zioinist bible so that Armageddon will come, kill most Jews and the CZ's will be in rapture with their devil of a God. That enough for you to want to kill me and my family?

    There is overwhelming proof that the 67 war was a war of Colonial aggression by Israel against the indigenous people of the region. The only question Israel had was whether the US would stop it as it did in 56. That was what they argued about. The US did not. The USS Liberty possibly being the final show of strength by Israel to the US. After that they decided to work together and always be there for Israel - no that was after Israel threatened to use nukes.

    There is a Rabbi who has done a lecture on the founding of Israel not being about the desire to get away from antisemitism but rather being the desire to get away from Judaism and to become like antisemites were to them to others. Yesterday when I was looking at that I noticed an article by Jeremy Bowen (a British Jewish Journalist) on the 67 war where he expressed a similar view.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  13. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Guy Laron never wrote a book named - bluntly or not - "Expanding Israel's borders".

    Short quotes* taken out of context are irrelevant. Post the quotes within their proper context, or don't post them at all.

    The Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian and Iraqi (your source forgot the last one) air forces had not been annihilated in little more than one hour. Only 284 out of 419 airplanes of the Egyptian air forces had been destroyed in the first three hours.

    Sloppy, Grau. Very sloppy, untrustworthy sources.

    * Supposing the quotes are accurate, which is not necessarily so.There are tons of fake quotes attributed to various Israeli leaders.
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is a clip from a reel 'the 6 day war censored voices' of some Jewish soldiers who fought in that war speaking.

    I got that from this thread I started some years ago.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ges-every-decade-for-defence-purposes.438077/

    Here is JFJFP's report on it during the time we in the UK got to watch it

    http://jfjfp.com/are-we-doomed-to-bomb-villages-every-decade-for-defence-purposes/

    It would appear you now need to pay to watch the video

     
  15. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    You claim that the Moshe Dayan quote is from his diaries, then post a link that sources the supposed quote to the Koenig Memorandum. Sloppy, not trustworthy.

    By the way, your source is wrong. Neither of the supposed quotes appear in the Koenig Memorandum.
     
  16. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, there were Jews in Israel who wanted revenge for the terrorists.
    Some of these groups operated without govt approval because there
    was no govt at the time. Just settlers.
    Now compare that to the leaders of Egypt and Syria threatening to kill
    all the Jews. Not some Haganah type group but heads of state. And
    their population lapped it up. They intended to kill several million Jews.

    The "colonial aggression" began with Syria trying to block the Jordan.
    And then the Russians claiming the Israelis were massing on the border.
    (Without evidence - when the Arabs checked they found nothing BTW)
    And then the colonial Egyptians threw out the UN and were planning to
    invade another country and kill its indigenous people.

    There are tons of videos on Youtube. Google "Six Day War" and watch
    some of the Israeli ones. Quite inspiring. Here were Jews digging mass
    graves, their own leader had a nervous breakdown - and yet by wiping
    out the Arab air forces Israel had a great victory.
     
  17. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The quote appears frequently and from various sources.
    Until you prove its fake I'll keep using it since it exemplifies Israel's "Provoke-then-massacre" M.O.
     
  18. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're right about Guy Laron. The title of his book is "The Six Day War; the Breaking of the Middle East" however it includes a chapter: "Expanding Israel's Borders".(1)

    I don't use quotes that I know to be fake & there is nothing "irrelevant" about using quotes, short or long so I'll post whatever accurate quotes I like.



    (1) https://books.google.com/books?id=y...e&q="Expanding Israel's Borders" book&f=false
     
  19. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Twice Egypt cut off Israeli traffic from the Straits of Tiran, and twice Israel responded militarily.

    In 1956 Egypt seized the Suez Canal and banned Israeli traffic from it and the Straits of Tiran, in violation of international law and treaty.

    Every time Egypt ****s with Israel, Israel fights back.

    Lesson learned.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  20. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And Egypt got beat badly in 1967 and 1973.
    Egypt has no appetite for any more adventures with Israel.
    I feel that the Palestinians need to be beaten badly too. Same for Syria. Only then
    will these people change - that's what happened to the Germans after WWII, so
    profound was the defeat they never felt the need to build another war machine,
    whereas after WWI it was just an armistice and soon Germany was back fighting
    again.

    And the Arabs feel they can war against Israel and if they lose they can sue for
    peace, with support of the UN or the Russians. But if the Israelis lose then no UN
    or Russia is going to step in. This must change - the Arab nations need to understand
    that next time around their defeat will be the total destruction and occupation of their
    countries.
     
  21. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You keep repeating the same nonsense I've already refuted in my earlier Post #751

    The Israelis were determined to use any pretext to grab more Arab land and had planned to do so for 16 years:

    "Mordechaï Hod—whose forces had annihilated the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian aviation in little more than an hour on 5 June 1967—declared: “for sixteen years, we had been planning what took place in those first 80 minutes. We lived with that plan, we ate with it, we slept with it. We never stopped improving it.” (1)

    The Israeli's had long planned for the '67 War / Land Grab and the Israelis fired the first shot.
    It's as simple as that.


    (1) "How the Israeli Generals Prepared The Conquest Long Before 1967"
    https://orientxxi.info/magazine/how-the-israeli-generals-prepared-the-conquest-long-before-1967,1904
     
  22. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so you're saying the Egyptians did NOT close the Straits of Tiran and the Suez Canal to Israeli traffic in 1956?

    so you're saying the Israelis did NOT urge Jordan to stay out of the 1967 war?
     
  23. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Earlier, you claimed that Israel faced a "genocidal" threat because of the closure of the Straits of Tiran.
    However, this nonsense about Israel facing a genocidal threat is so distorted as to be insulting to the many who know and knew better:

    "To claim that the Egyptian troops massed at the border could in any way threaten the existence of Israel is not only an insult to the intelligence of any person capable of analysing this type of situation, but above all an insult to the Israeli army.” [General Matti Peled, Chief Logistics Officer] (1)

    Chaim Herzog goes on to say: “There was no danger of annihilation. The Israeli general staff never thought there was” (Maariv, 4 April 1972).

    Ezer Weitzman says plainly: “The hypothesis of extermination was never envisaged in any serious meeting.” (Haaretz,29 March 1972)

    Yitzhak Rabin asserted: “We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the Six-Day War, and no such possibility ever occurred to us.” (Ibid.) (1)

    Therefore, the closure of the Straits of Tiran posed no threat to Israel's existence and since Israel had long planned for a war of expansion, the closure served as merely an excuse to start a war for which Israel had already long planned.
     
  24. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    LOL!!!!

    why do you keep responding to posts that are a week old???

    get over it, bro. We moved on.

    and yes, closing the Straits of Tiran AND the Suez Canal to Israeli traffic was an act of unprovoked WAR that Israel had a right to respond to with its military.


    those waterways were VITAL to Israel's economic survival, and closing them was an attempt to provoke a war that they arrogantly thought they could win cause they think Jews can't fight or win wars.

    they learned their lesson. 4 times.

    time for them to learn a new trick




    and yes, if Jordan did not foolishly choose to attack Israel, they would have never lost the West Bank. Funny how you always blame Israel for the stupid decisions of Arabs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  25. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    sorry, but Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran and the Suez Canal to Israeli traffic in 1956.
     
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