Brexit Deal Agreed Between UK & EU / Can UK cope without Northern Ireland?

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by The Rhetoric of Life, Oct 17, 2019.

  1. USVet

    USVet Well-Known Member

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    UK MP can at least introduce legislation and offer amendments to legislation. MEPs can do neither. That is right; you have “legislators” who cannot legislate anything thus why you have no democracy.
     
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  2. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Never mind some people and your twists. The majority of people in Northern Ireland and Scotland want to stay in the EU. In Scotland that is a massively bigger majority want to stay in the EU who want to leave. The propaganda from Westminster which terrified people in the days before the Independence vote was that the only way Scotland could guarantee staying in the EU was if it voted for to stay in the Union. Scotland was lied to then. With both Scotland and Northern Ireland, democracy is not even being considered re the EU.

    As far as some people in Northern Ireland wanting to leave the EU. Yes some do but not a majority. The Hard Right DUP thought that if they could get a hard Brexit and NI out of the EU then it would end the possibility of a United Ireland and Independent Scotland. For religious reasons they want to keep Ireland and Scotland in Union with England. This is a minority of the people of N Ireland and their position along with actions of the Westminster Government is not democratic for the people of Northern Ireland and has produced a situation which is breaking the Good Friday agreement. This will leave England with no support at all as the US has already made clear they support Ireland and any attempt to create war again in Ireland which this is will mean no deal with the US.

    Your ideas are all twisted.
     
  3. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The UK has no democracy. The democratic vote of the people of N Ireland and Scotland is being ignored.
     
  4. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    I see, so if Texas and New Jersey vote for Prez nominate A and the rest of the country votes for nominate B - When B moves into the White House you cheer the protests and threats and attacks against congress men and women and the defacing of historical monuments because B moving in is not democratic.

    The four United Kingdoms are one unit. NI, Wales, Scotland and England. Wales and England voted an overwhelming OUT, so overwhelmingly that we outvoted all of the rest. Why do you think that is? Why? Do you have a clue as to why we so loathe the EU?

    The votes of Scotland and NI have been taken into account by going for agreements with the Racketeers, as opposed to simply Leaving. With the traitors in the Mother of all Parliaments, singing the Red Flag 'on those Green Benches', ripping up constitution and convention as they go and having lost our own Law Lords of English common law who were dismissed and replaced by Blair with an EU, coded law, court as the highest authority over us - which also ripped up our Constitution Art 9 of the Bill of Rights [1689] - what happens next is anyone's guess.

    And alexa ask yourself, or rather research, why Scotland joined the Union and also how the Irish Troubles began - Of the three I feel more pity for Wales myself but history cannot be undone - control over our hierarchy we had less of then than we do now - I can't help the Tyranny of Cromwell or any other past Sassenach than you can.
     
  5. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    Do you think any of us are happy with the Deal? When I first saw it I was heartbroken - we all fell into despair. Until we realised what Boris had, against the odds and all nay sayers, done. There was/is not time to start again the EU and we are sick to death of this stagnation - Boris got them to reopen negotiations to renegotiate the May deal which, because of NI, tied us into the EU until they said we could leave ( never). Boris has negotiated an escape route out within one year to 18 mths - a transition period with an end as opposed to Mays no-end.
     
  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Absolute Rubbish! 62% of the Scottish people and 56% of the people of Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU. Even the Welsh are moving towards Independence now they know how they were tricked and how how much they are going to be harmed by this.

    That you describe this, or even for that matter the vote of the combined countries of the UK of 52% against 48% as in overwhelming favour suggests you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Scotland only voted to stay in the Union in order to stay in the EU. Brexit extremers have no interest in democracy. All they want is chaos. You do however suggest a desire for authoritarian control both over the non Brexiters of England and over Scotland. Who the hell would want to be in a dictatorship like this.
     
  7. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    There is more than one kind of democracy. it is the stupid who define it to suit themselves.
    There are plenty of stupid people on this site who don't have a clue.
     
  8. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We go by representative democracy. This is not just a vote every few years though when it refuses another vote and demands a previous remains, it pretty much is done with democracy. Democracy though has other values not least that as citizens we are all equal in that we all have one vote, we have an equal say - something which a Representative Democracy ought to uphold. I would say a genuine democracy also requires people speak the truth as far as they know it. We no longer have this. Truth and integrity has been abandoned by our Politicians.

    What form of democracy are you talking about?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  9. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    Scotland joined the Union because they had bankrupted themselves by putting all of their money in one South American venture which failed. The Irish problem began because of Irish raids on the mainland - who else was St Pat if not one of their English kidnapped slaves? Poor Wales was totally conquered though the whole story I now forget - they have not!

    There are many reasons why Scots voted to stay in the Union 1) Loyalty 2) Money 3) Ease of life. The EU have told the SNP they they would not be welcome as an independent state - so it is a no brainer. If any part of the Union wants to split that is up to them - they all now have devolved powers, wisely given or not is debatable. If they want to go further and rule themselves, collect their own taxes and have their own Embassies and passports, money ect why should I, one little English woman mind or even feel that I have a right to deny them? I don't. Compton Mackenzie set up the SNP at the same time as the IRA were fighting for Irish independence before and during WWI ( some still believe that WWI was fought only as a distraction away from the Irish problem).The Welsh have always held a hatred for the Sassenach, not without good reason. But then historically the English were not treated so well by our 'betters' either, were we? There was, not far from where I live, a Peasants revolt ending in the death of all involved as did all peasant's revolts end, Long live Wat Tyler. We all have a historical beef with the powers that be --- out of serfdom we all fought for a better, fairer society - all of us. That is what we should all be fighting together for now - but now as then there are other and powerful interests involved - Openly, with no pretence, Soros, Goldman Sachs, J. P Morgan, Blair et al are funding the opposition ( we do not have a Logan Act as do you)- the opposition which are dividing us. We were together a force to reckon with in the World once, for good as well as for ill - once we are out we could be again on a different level in smaller ways - as well as putting our own affairs right again - for instance, we never had homeless people sleeping in every shop door way - we had itinerants but never homeless ones as we do now - slums were long gone and every one had a roof --- due to EU Directives ( service and fair trade ect) every single shop door way is home to some poor sod - food banks we never had before - soup kitchens now made illegal - a directive again - we were a fair society before now we are not - thanks to the EU.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  10. Cari

    Cari Active Member

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    You are beginning to sound like someone who would buy a house without even visiting the place. What parliament was giving is a 100 page document and a few days in which to agree to or not to.
    What we are deciding will have a dramatic effect on the lives of 60 million plus people in this country, to get that done properly it will have take each line to be examined by lawyers and their advice to be given to the members of parliament, which will take weeks or months.Of course Boris wants to rush his deal through without the minimal amount of scrutiny and you don’t give a toss.
    If you think that Bo Joe, an egoistical liar and trainee pole dancer, is in any way good for our country,you must be brain dead.
     
  11. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    The EU is not a democracy = those who make the laws are appointed by the EU. Pledge an allegiance to the EU alone and are immune from prosecution for life. The people are not represented and are not sovereign.

    The UK is a monarchical representative democracy = those who make the laws are servants of the people - the people are sovereign.
     
  12. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    It is 600 pages which they have had three years to read. The changes were fully discussed on Saturday and then the whole thing was voided because Letwin's amendment - the Benn Act - meant that Parliament would have been voting on May's Deal not Boris's. But it had been discussed fully before with empty Green Benches!

    Monday Bercow refused Parliament permission to debate Boris's bill, falsely sighting repetition - Now the traitors want to change the Treaty agreed by Gov and the EU to bring it back to May's Deal and worse. So Boris will pull it - of course.

    Yes, we can get rid of the 84 thousand repressive, oppressive EU laws on our books - build social housing again - fish our own waters ( an island race who cannot fish off its shores!) allow out local govs to perform their explicit functions, regain a decent education for our kids - build our own boats, trains and etc - so much that we have lost because people like you love being slaves.
     
  13. free man

    free man Well-Known Member

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    There is still a big problem with the deal.
    It subjects UK to EU for a transition period of 1.5 years, in which UK has to abide by any laws made by EU.
    In addition, UK agreed that anything they do not agree with EU will be resolved in the EU court.
    How come one party submits to another. At best there should be a mediator who is not one of the parties.
    In addition UK pays ton of ransom money to the EU for no reason whatsoever.
    No deal on the 31st should be the best solution.
    Later UK will have better negotiation position VS EU than today.
     
  14. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    Nobody wants to turn their back on the European countries in the EU, but European countries want to turn their backs on America and treat them like an outsider to compete with rather than a partner to secure ties with; The UK chooses the world, and chooses to look outwards towards that world, since the EU made the choice easy for Brexiteers who respect all that America has taught the UK and all the liberation from tyranny America has done for Europe.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  15. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    In 2001 I saw the birth place of America and took the tour at Independence Hall in Philadelphia; I saw a plaque placed by my country thanking the American Revolution of 1776 for teaching us (The British) the evils of tyranny and the virtues of liberty; a shot heard around the world; a lesson my country values dearly.
    When you're some 3, 000 miles away from home (that's right, UK uses miles, get used to it world); and see anything from home; it sort of sticks with you; and this plaque presented by the queen in 1976 was one of them.
    UK feels the USA has made the UK a better place and the world a better place simply by standing up for freedom.

    The EU... Not so much; they get touchy about not flying the EU flag in some places and view America as the competition but offer nothing better and instead rely on the redundant argument of 'Because it's Europe' with out saying why Europe is better.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  16. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    Well since the DUP don't want this deal and the EU said UK can have no better deal and UK's determined to Brexit; guess UK would have to crash out and push for a clean break from the EU.
    Can't say UK hasn't tried.
     
  17. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    We would love a no-deal. The Withdrawal Act of 2018 keeps all EU laws in situ until repealed by Parliament anyway. The trouble is not with trade though the trouble is that the EU runs every aspect of our lives. Untangling ourselves from 45 yrs of foreign rule is not as easy as we wish it could be. All of our old and ancient evolved structures are gone - replaced by EU structure behind the facade of our old ones.

    But if it is to be a no-deal - cool apart from the powerful opposition which would do their best to see us in the gutter if we do have a direct split from all EU institutions and structures.
     
  18. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    You mean like laws that gave us clean beaches, laws that stopped the fish stock being destroyed so much so that it nearly led us into a war against Iceland over cod because we over-fished our territory? And which laws have stopped children being educated or stopped us building our own boats and trains?
     
  19. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    nothing to do with Brexit being against the will of the Scottish people and staying in the EU along with the threat that pensioners would not get their pensions being arguably the reasons for a vote to stay in the Union. Scotland did not vote to leave the EU. You do not own Scotland. You, authoritarian though you clearly are, do not rule the people of England never mind Scotland. Scotland will almost certainly go for Independence after we leave. This does not bother the far right who have worked to destroy the Union knowing that Scotland will leave and working to destroy the Good Friday agreement.

    I would be well happy knowing you are shooting yourselves in the foot but unfortunately you are also shooting the rest of the people of your country.

    This is what Paul Mason describes as the temporary alliance of the elite and the mob. You are part of, or support the mob, given your many calls for blood on the street and calling people 'traitors'.

    The need to save the planet will hopefully prevail and this madness will go back into the cupboard where it belongs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  20. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    There's an excellent chance the UK will lose both Scotland and Northern Ireland if it leaves the EU, especially it it leaves without a deal.
     
  21. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    There were three Cod wars - and yes people died.

    Laws which disallow us to build our own social housing - laws which have deniedour, once independent from any institutional central gov presence, local govs the ability to perform their explicit functions and be forced to sell off that which was publicly owned and forced to put out to tender our own services and utilities - those municipalities on which Britain was built - for 'the British State was a municipal project, and the State is now being unmade by the collapse of that project' (Tom Crewe). The collapse first crafted by Lord Redcliffe- Maud's 'holocaust of local government' in order that we fit snuggly into the EU very foreign project.

    Corbyn was driveling on about workers rights today - worker's rights that a Labour man should know, as well as the back of his hand, that we gave to the EU having begun here during the Industrial Revolution. Even now - women in Europe get 14 weeks maternity leave where as women here get 52 weeks - Human Rights - of which every charter was written by English lawyers out of our own and existing laws.

    Education in our State schools today is not education it is indoctrination based on opinion as opposed to facts and critical thought - when we once had an amazing education system.

    Now Swindon is standing up dissing Brexit - she who took £3.4 million from the EU for her family business. Good people you have trying to keep us cowered under the occupation of a foreign power.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  22. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    There are other forms such as proportional representation systems, transferrable votes, votes at 16, different lengths of time in office, the division of powers and how they may be governed.
    I am not extolling the merits or demerits of any particular system, but attempting to point out that the brexit referendum was one form of democracy, but not the only one, and not necessarily the overriding one.
     
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  23. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    You omit to add that those appointed by the EU are appointed by an EU under the control of national democracies. it may seem cumbersome to you, but the EU is a clear democratic structure whose powers are ultimately established by the people.
     
  24. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To a large extent there is some truth in what you say. However where it is not true is that it was Neo Liberalism not the EU who caused this and that Neo Liberalism was created by the UK and America - Thatcher and Reagan. Brexiters are simply supporting this by blaming it on the EU who did laterly buy into it generally at a less extreme extent than the UK.
    I must be luck in that I am very happy with the education my grandchildren are receiving but then I live in Scotland and it is still under control of the local authority. Again you are blaming the EU for the work of the far right of the Tory Party who is who you support.
     
  25. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    And the Speaker decides what to vote on.
    Same in the US Senate, one guy decides. When Mitch says No it means no voting on any piece of legislature.

    That's democracy ?
     

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