Bernie wants to legalize Pot -

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Giftedone, Oct 26, 2019.

  1. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Agreed whole heartedly with the bolded that has always been the nature of government to expend its power to the maximum degree possible.
     
  2. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    I have that impression, yes. But I could be wrong. I do know that Republicans are blocking legalization in my state.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What do you mean "anything" .. what a ridiculous response. Better than what ? Trump ? How - Trump has done nothing but pad the pockets of the elite and maintain the status quo.

    The question we are addressing here is "Anti Establishment" Trump is an Establishment wonk. I don't think you know what the Establishment is - and what their objectives are.
     
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  4. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yep, republican in power are against it, but then again, Boehner just got involved, so maybe they are changing too

    "John Boehner is joining a marijuana company"

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/john-boehner-is-joining-a-marijuana-company-2018-04-11

    "John Boehner’s Marijuana Reversal: ‘My Thinking on Cannabis Has Evolved’"

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/us/politics/boehner-cannabis-marijuana.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah but, you don't understand what the Establishment is - or the nature of what Gov't has become - or how much of the Kool-aid you have ingested.

    You have this Red vs Blue perspective ... where Red is "OK" perhaps not great but OK - whereas Blue is the Devil.

    It doesn't work like that. The Establishment in general doesn't care about hot button issues - gay marriage, immigration, abortion and neither red or blue has addressed the systemic issues related to healthcare. Obamacare was lipstick on a pig.

    The actions matter - not words. The things red and blue Establishment agree on - is where the Devil lies. not on the hot button issues.

    The Establishment cares about money, power, maintaining the status quo - current power structure - keeping the raging masses from rising up. The Establishment - both Red and Blue - political and bureaucratic elite - do what the big money interests tell them to do - for the most part.

    And there are many interests .. its not some star chamber or Cabal. and sometimes these interests compete and conflict... but - on some things they agree - and this is where you must look. not the "hot button" issues in general - there is some overlap sometimes.

    Clapper - Obama NSA -en mass domestic spying program. is an Establishment program - one that Trump lobbied Congress to reinstate a short time ago.

    One of the biggest threats to essential liberty in our lifetime - coupled with a massive increase in Gov't power - the likes of which we have not seen in our lifetime.

    Fighting useless wars - Arming terrorist proxy armies - Surely we have better things to do with our money. Tulsi's argument.
    Red and Blue Establishment - are together - against this kind of nonsense. Huge dollars into PR - Public Relations - smear.

    Can you believe that reaction .. Fox being the only one giving some semblance of the Truth. The left MSM going out all out attack mode. PR spin on steroids - created by the big PR companies. PR - Public Relations - is the rebranded term for Propaganda .. and it is a multi Billion dollar international business. Some bucks were spent on Tulsi.

    When it comes down to actions - the vote - there were 13 bipartisan Co-sponsors to the bill to "stop arming al Qaeda/terrorists"

    out of 435 in the House. Rand Paul introduced the bill to the house with a total of ZERO co-sponsors.

    So out of 535 we have 15 people sponsoring this bill. ding ding ding. Red and Blue Establishment are in complete agreement that we should continue to arm Al Qaeda when we please - and not inform the US public.

    Even if you love war - and believe in the propaganda fantasy that our armies are out there fighting to keep us safe - and/or fighting for the interests of the US - one should at least consider if our foreign war activities are having a positive Return on Investment (ROI) - if we are getting the proper bang for our buck.

    That is a verboten topic in general - and definitely one is not allowed to conflict with the "necessary illusion narrative" of the day.

    If you want arrows to shoot at Blue I have many - yours however are missing the target.
     
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  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed we should follow the Golden rule - which is how the system was designed.

    The legitimate authority of Gov't is "Protection from Harm" - one person on another - rape ,murder , theft and so on.
    essential liberty was put above the legitimate authority of Gov't.

    Essential liberty is then defined as the Golden Rule - so long as you are not hurting others - no harm no foul.

    There must however be a mechanism for interpretation. The constitution is part of that. . Should we have no speed limits in residential areas ? Should we allow incest - bestiality - and when these tough questions come up - who decides ? and what is the mechanism.

    Will the people accept such a limitation to Gov't authority ? because at the end of the day they can elect Stalin if they want to.

    The people determine what power is given to the Authority - getting them to agree with what we have (not that we follow it) is quite a step.
     
  7. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but that's mostly fantasy. 1st it is government rules and regulations that mostly broke the health care system, not the profit motive. The government is the establisment. When one talks of growing the government one invariably grows the establishment. And there are plenty of asshats on the Republican side, starting with the damn neocons most of whom dispise Trump in no small part because he is less inclined towards military adventurism than they are. Please note their is a war going on for the heart soul of the Republican party. How it will come out at this point is anyone's guess. However there is now no such war now extant within the democratic everyone wants to grow the government there are minor arguments around the edges about where to grow it but all want to grow it along with an ever increasing bureaucratic state that will by its very nature strangle human freedom.
     
  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Can’t argue with any of that as long as we don’t treat individual liberty or natural right the same as speed limits and incest. Because I see them as very different things.

    Circling back, I believe if someone wants to do meth or heroin in their own home it’s their right to do so. Same as booze and tobacco. When it comes to the individual and the individual alone, I don’t have the right to decide what is or isn’t too dangerous or risky. I think that’s the only area we disagree.
     
  9. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think it should be legal but will still take no weed over communism any day of the week
     
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  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is "Fantasy" ? My post did not comment on what broke the healthcare system. Your claim that the profit motive is not a large contributing factor is demonstrable rubbish however.


    Political and Bureaucratic Elite are part of the Establishment. You left out the big money interests that pull the strings.

    Red talks the talk but walks a different walk. Red administrations have consistently grown Gov't more than blue - and Trump is one of the worst.

    Red Establishment hates individual liberty, the rule of law, and the founding principles - and wants to strangle human freedom.
     
  11. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Right now the progressives and socialist have a super majority which means they can do what ever they want and nobody can do jack **** about it. Not even you.

    Facts are California is a one party rule state, a totalitarian state.

    Back when the Democrats had a simple majority less than 66% it was the 33% of Republicans who stopped all of the tax increases.

    Now they tax cow farts and have you noticed the price of California's milk and cheese ?

    And since the progressives and socialist are a super majority, they own it 100%.

    California became America's first third world state and the Democrats own it 100%
     
  12. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But whites tend to know how to shoot guns and hit what they are aiming at and keep their guns clean so they don't malfunction.
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I understand the difference - was just giving examples that were not direct - one person on another - harm.

    We don't necessarily disagree on the person doing Meth Heroin. My point is that my personal stance of the issue is irrelevant (sans constituting one vote). My point is that it is inherent in society - that there is some method by which regulation of some activities can be accomplished. We both agree that this is inherently evil - where we disagree is on whether or not this is a necessary evil.

    My position is that I do not see it possible for a society that adheres strictly to (one can do anything up to the point of fist meeting nose) - sans a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

    A democratic process will always default to regulating at least some activities. Given this reality - how do we create a system that limits Gov't ability to mess with individual liberty ?
     
  14. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. And a good ending question. My answer is we probably can’t. Because not enough people care to have such a system. I guess that was your point when you said people can elect Stalin if they want.
     
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  15. clg311

    clg311 Well-Known Member

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    Legalize marijuana. Decriminalize other drugs.
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One of the biggest problems is lack of education with respect to the founding principles - what essential liberty means - legitimacy of authority and so on.

    If you ask someone - "Do you want limits to Gov't power or would you prefer totalitarianism" "Yes Yes" they will exclaim .. Limit Power we don't want totalitarianism !.

    If you then say "OK - so what then should power be limited to ? - as per the founding principles" - you will get a deer in the headlights look.

    Very few know what the question of a referendum is (use banning alcohol as an example). The question of a referendum to ban alcohol is NOT - "do you like alcohol". The question is "Do you have sufficient justification to force your personal dislike of alcohol on others through physical violence (Law).

    "I don't like Alcohol" is not a sufficient justification - can you imagine if we mad laws simply on the basis that some person does not like something - or even a group.

    Likewise - "God Says so" - is an also an invalid answer to the question. Prove what God likes or does not -and good luck with that.

    In the abortion debate between Biden and Paul Ryan - like or hate the guy - Biden came up with the correct answer. Biden stated - "As a Catholic, I am against abortion but, I do not believe in forcing my personal religious beliefs on others"

    Golden rule - If you don't want others forcing their personal beliefs on you - then don't do this to others.

    12 years of school and we manage not to teach the founding principles and so most do not have clue what they are - or why.
    12 years of school and we manage not to teach the basics of Philosophy - Logic, Logical Fallacy, what constitutes a valid argument, critical thinking.

    Without these basic tools - how is a person supposed to wade through the cacophony of fallacy and bad argument raining down on them on a daily basis from Politicians and the Media ?

    Without an educated electorate - (educated in the above principles and "what constitutes a valid argument") there is no such thing as a functional democratic process.
     
  17. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh, and ask what we should do to improve education and the answer is spend more money. It’s bizarre.

    The current state of education was not an accident. It was intentional and well orchestrated.

    Now we are to the point nobody has experienced enough freedom to contrast it with what we have today. It’s depressing. How do you get people to fight for freedom if they don’t know what it is or how it’s beneficial?
     
  18. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    most mass shooters are white men, but I would not say ban all guns from white people

    it's racist to say we should take away the 2nd from an entire race
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  19. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    There are representatives from green states who are waiting for a Democratic president to push such legislation. A Democratic majority in the Senate would pretty much guarantee the removal of marihuana from the schedule 1 list.
     
  20. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Didn't I already mention that whites know how to shoot guns and hit what they are aiming at.
     
  21. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Less federal cops enforcing federal marijuana laws means more federal cops enforcing immigration laws.
     
  22. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    The homeless drunks are little different from homeless heroin addicts.
     
  23. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    The argument that put legalization over the top, was saving money. In Colorado, Washington, Oregon, the states have saved money by not wasting law enforcement resources, and have benefitted from the tax. Pot tourism has been a boost to the tourism industry.
     
  24. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    That sir is because the Neo cons have parlayed their hold on money into power. And the only real difference between them and Dems are military spendIng. And the idea that red has expanded the government faster than blue is ludicrous on its face.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  25. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yep, time to end the war on drugs, the war on drugs funds terrorists and gangs
     

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