More than 200 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza after Islamic Jihad leader killed

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Thedimon, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The PLO signed the Oslo accord . " The Oslo process started after secret negotiations in Oslo, resulting in the recognition by the PLO of the State of Israel and the recognition by Israel of the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and as a partner in negotiations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

    Arafat turned out to be right.

    What part of .. "The PLO recognized the State of Israel - did you not understand ?

    This above is abject nonsense on steroids.
     
  2. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    @Poohbear,
    Behind all the polemics, and twisting of facts, and relying on bible stories for your understanding of history, there is one element in what you mention that is not false. There is a strong current of anti-Jewish sentiment among many Arabs, including among many (not all) Palestinians. The same way there is a strong current of anti-Persian sentiment among them. But also in the same way that there is an equally strong current of anti-Arab sentiment among most Israeli Jews, among many Persians and among many Turks. All of these hatreds, however, are the product of propaganda narratives, turned into myths, legends, and truths, intended by each culture to demonize a political or cultural rival or foe. This exercise occurs in all cultures and we are seeing it unfold its latest chapters in the West, in the US and elsewhere, with the rise of anti-Muslim sentiments to replace what was once anti-Semitic sentiments run amok.

    While any hatred that exists or arises from past history or the history that is unfolding itself becomes part of the forces and political realities affecting the conflicts at issue, ultimately the forces who stand for hatred and racism are basically the ones allied to Israel. There is hatred and racism on the other side too, but they aren't nearly as powerful enough to make their hatred a real threat and their most important sponsors today are people who don't share their hatred at all.

    Who are those outside sponsors?

    The secular Palestinians have their greatest source of ideological support from secular Europeans and Americans (many Jewish) who are guided by the traditions of the enlightenment and the liberal ideology emerging from it, including the liberal ideology (with many American Jews at its forefront) that emerged within American constitutional history and its quest to defeat racism within its ranks. Now, because secular, liberal, European and American ideology and political interests in the US had an understandable soft spot for the plight of the Jews, this group actually wanted to close its eyes on the evils of political Zionism and chase a pipe dream called the "two-state solution". Regardless of the motives behind it, it was a fraud -- a pipe dream that would have never produced a lasting solution. But this group is the one that best exemplifies a rejection of the racist ideology of the Nazis, and while they are equally against the idea of making the Jews part of the new "master race", they are certainly the least amenable to any genuine "anti-Semitic" ideology of the kind that was prevalent in the no so distant past in Europe -- and which has found a new objects to spew its hatred among many who include Israel's greatest proponents today.

    Islamist Palestinians, on the other hand, are left with few foreign patrons. Qatar and a few other Sunni states might still fund some aspects of their activities, but their main foreign sponsor is Iran. And Iran, while being anti-Zionist, is explicitly not anti-Semitic. That doesn't mean you can't look through years of anti-Israeli discourse in Iran and not find some isolated example of someone spewing anti-Jewish hatred, but the overall true thrust of Iran's political and ideological struggle against Zionism has nothing to do with any hatred of the Jews. (In some ways, very complicated to explain here, the opposite in fact).

    So, on the surface of the battle between Israel and the Palestinians, you have two camps who each have many racist elements within them. The pro Israeli camp has its racists who are now even more emboldened in their racism by power and the support they enjoy. The pro Palestinian camp (both secular and Islamist) has its own racists, whose racism truly is focused mostly on Jews and Persians! But above that surface, there is a much greater emphasis on racism and racial ideologies among the foreign sponsors of the pro Israeli groups than that is any racism in either the liberal European thought that supports a fair two-state solution to the "Israeli-Palestinian" conflict or within Iran (which supports a one-state solution that is ultimately confederate in character).
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  3. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    No, not quite. "Justification" is something that can appeal beyond the "justifyer" and also appeal to the person who is intended to be persuaded. But your viewpoint, I am sure, is enough justification for those who think like you.

    Understandable. Just make sure you choose wisely and don't find yourself inadvertently fueling the monster you appear interested in fighting.
    In the meantime, in my view of things, the Middle East needs to be open to all tourists from all backgrounds. Iran is that way actually: as long as you observe the old adage: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do", you won't find a more hospitable and safe country anywhere else. Visiting Iran, in fact, could prove a truly profound experience. Beyond your image of Iran from your Tehrangeles friends, do a simple google search under "Travel to Iran". See what you find.

    But the Middle East does not need to be the West! You already have more than a strip but much of the world where your views aren't a crime at all. The (Western imperialist) forces that want to enforce viewpoints on others, including in regions which may not share those views (at least not now), are often forces that you will find wanting to enforce a lot of other views on your own home turf too. Empowering them will become a greater threat to your security than anything that happens in any strip of land in the Middle East.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
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  4. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Your truth is build on one little, not so relevant, fact, namely that there has never been an independent Palestinian state, and then a lot of myths, propaganda and twisting of logic to accomplish something that can't be done except through genocide and ethnic cleansing: have the Palestinians disappear! Disappear from people's consciousness, from the historical record, from any sympathy...

    In the meantime, if you want to talk about the "truth" about "the people and the land", I will give it to you but you have to be interested in being enlightened. If you are just interested in polemics, I guess you have found the formula that works for you.

    Well, if they loved Arafat, it wasn't a feeling reciprocated by him. That we know because Arafat sided with Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war.
    If you want to know the truth about the attitude of the "mullahs" towards Israel, I will share that with you as well. The "mullahs" aren't a monolith either. But there are 2-3 clear strains of ideological and geopolitical influence on their attitude. Arafat is not really an important component in any of it.
     
  5. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Poohbear, you are wrong! Jews have been living in Syria since Adam and Eve!!
    From Wiki:
    Syrian Jews derive their origin from two groups: those who inhabited Syria from early times and the Sephardim who fled to Syria after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain (1492 AD).

    There were large communities in Aleppo, Damascus, and Qamishli for centuries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Syria
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  6. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of the seven Arab enemies Israel fought - the Syrians are considered
    the most hateful. That's fairly well understood. These hatreds went back
    to biblical times, right back to the age of the Assyrians.
    Egyptians never hated the Israelites like this, nor Edomite, Moabites,
    Amalekites etc..
    Syria did not sign any peace treaty with Israel.
    Interestingly, SYRIA CLAIMS PART OF PALESTINE AS ITS OWN.
    Probably the Galilee.
    I don't understand it really, the current govt of Assad is a fairly modern,
    secular and tolerant one - just won't accept Israel, and probably, never
    did in ancient times either.
     
  7. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    You mean a post of yours from this thread?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  8. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    You're right, I don't consider such sources credible. Not because they're our enemies, but because there's no shred of proof for their claims.

    A credible source is one that brings proof, not one that is friendly.

    You carefully avoid - in this thread and others - the issue of the Saudi financial help for Assad at the beginning of the unrest. This is something both Israel and the US must have been aware of, and I find it very hard to believe that either would have tried to sabotage the Saudi efforts. Besides, Obama was no enemy of Iran. I find the idea of a US-Israeli-Saudi plan to remove Assad "from the beginning" quite laughable.

    Why are you linking efforts to turn Assad away from Iran with the Syrian civil war? I thought you didn't subscribe to various conspiracy theories regarding the reasons for the unrest.

    Bring all the sources your bandwidth can carry. I like sources.

    Well, this is another "Israel is a colonial outpost that doesn't really belong to the Middle East" attempt at justifying anti-Zionism. This is the ideological basis for the tactics used by terrorists, in the hope that the foreign Zionist colonists will give up and leave, just like the French leaved Algeria. Hélas, the Zionists are not foreign colonists, this is our home and we won't leave.

    "In cahoots with the neocons"? Your opinions would be far more valuable if you didn't drop occasional cliches manufactured by a certain segment of the left to make Israel and/or the US the guilty party no matter what.

    May I gleefully remind you that the one Arab state that kept funding ISIS after the Saudis dropped it like a hot potato, was none other than Iran's friend and ally Qatar. Was that in the neocons cahoot-ish blueprint as well?

    The groups Israel supported were relatively small and weak. No danger to Israel, at least as long as Iran and Hezbollah were around to focus the jihadists' efforts. Not like ISIS at all.

    I read everything carefully.
     
  9. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    While the Saudis and others had always pursued a policy of trying to gain enough leverage with Assad to convince him to cut his ties with Iran, when those efforts failed, so did any "assistance" they were offering Assad. In fact, Assad was told directly by the Saudis that the condition for them to help him out and stop the bloodbath, was for him to sever his ties with Iran/Hezbollah.

    This was, of course, part and parcel of the larger blue print or agenda which had been agreed by the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia as part of the "Redirection" described by Seymour Hersh based on an investigative report informed by both sources who went on record and were quoted as well as sources who spoke to him off the record:
    The Redirection
    Is the Administration’s new policy benefitting our enemies in the war on terrorism?
    By Seymour M. Hersh

    February 25, 2007
    To be sure, and as I mentioned, before the operations to destabilize Assad went into full swing, there were many diplomatic overtures to convince Assad to choose a different path. These efforts were spearheaded by then French president Sarkozy. They involved numerous meetings afterwards, involving Assad, an all sorts of other foreign interlocutors, including the Russians. The full force of these efforts, and the main stumbling block, was the insistence that Assad must first break with Iran/axis of resistance, while Assad wasn't willing to do so unless he could first receive tangible benefits. For instance, after the first meeting with Assad in Paris, Sarkozy continued on this initiative going to Syria to meet with Assad there in 2008.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/world/africa/03iht-sarkozy.4.15873619.html
    Sarkozy meets Assad in Syria
    SEPT. 3, 2008
    Others, including parties you mistakenly imagine to be Iran's "friends" just because they have a different agenda than US/Israel/Saudi Arabia and are more willing to work with and against Iran depending on the issue, were also meeting Assad and making the same offers if he switched his alliance with Iran and joined them instead.

    These efforts continued until almost the 'eve' of the Syrian civil war. This report is from a year before the Syrian civil war, before the last concerted US/Israeli/Saudi efforts to break up Assad's links to Iran.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-dismisses-calls-to-cut-ties-to-iran/
    Syria Dismisses Calls to Cut Ties to Iran
    Ultimately, the policy of Saudi Arabia was the same as the US, EU, and Israel: put pressure on Assad to break with Hezbollah/Iran and the axis of resistance. A policy which included offering Assad inducements if he went along with the idea, and its opposite, an attempt to destabilize and overthrow his regime if he didn't.

    The story of the Syrian civil war is aptly summarized in general terms by Professor Jeffery Sachs in this piece, which not only is presented by an extremely knowledgeable source (chosen as among the top 100 thinkers of our time by TIME magazine and a recipient of many prizes) but comes with both the necessary substantiation in links provided in the piece itself.
     
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  10. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    I should add that this obsession with Iran is still behind US policy on Syria. After their efforts to oust Assad failed, the Arabs (with Russia working as an intermediary) began to mend fences with Syria. The US, however, is putting pressure on these Arab states to slow down any reconciliation until Assad breaks his ties with Iran.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-to-keep-syria-isolated-sources-idUSKCN1Q70VO
     
  11. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Our "obsession" with Iran probably stems from its militancy, terror, empire ambitions
    and obsession with having the atomic bomb. I hate to think where the Mullahs, given
    their treatment of their own people, plan on using this bomb.
     
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nice cherry picking but not surprising.

    1) The Syrian issue and the fact that the Palestinians have recognized Israel - are completely separate and unrelated issues. Your Syrian comment was a walk down a rabbit hold - a red herring - that had nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

    2) I happen to like history,and ancient history, so I will entertain your comment - even though it had nothing to do with your completely false claim that the Palestinians had not recognized Israel.

    "ps the Syrians (or what is Syria today) have been Israel's bitter enemy, not for 80 years but
    about 3,000 years"


    It is true that the Assyrian Empire decimated the Northern Tribes - and scattered them to the winds of time - back around 700 BC. These tribes have long since been forgotten. The kingdom of Judah however, prospered as a vassal state under Assyria ("despite Hezekiah's revolt against the Assyrian king Sennacherib")

    The Assyrian empire was then toppled around 600 BC - by the Babylonians. The idea that this situation had something to do with the issues that exist today - is preposterous nonsense on steroids. There was no Syrian/Israel enmity - because Syria as a Nation , and Israel as a nation had ceased to exist 570 BC.

    Folks of Assyrian decent - and descendants of the kingdom of Judah - had far more to contend with then bickering with each other - each trying to eek out survival under the Babylonians. Then Persia took over - which was a boon to both. The Jewish people were allowed to rebuild their temple - and the Assyrian people were doing their thing - and Islam didn't exist. Folks did not care what God the Jews were worshiping - folks were all worshiping a variety of different Gods.

    "Bitter enemies" - Bitter enemies with who ? There was no Jewish state - there were no feuds on record between some descendants of Assyria and Jews after the Babylonian's took over. Point out one example that backs up your claim from 500 BC to 500 AD ?

    When the Muslims took power - they treated the Jews way better than did the Christians - for the next 1000 years - and that is well established historical fact.
     
  13. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Look, I am just telling you what I read in books about the Jewish wars. The Jews
    saw Syrians as the worst. And the Syrians treated captured Jews and Jewish dead
    the worst.
    I am going up to the Golan next year, hopefully.

    The OP is about the killing of al-Atah. There are rabbit holes everywhere. I just
    respond to something someone says - regardless of the OP.

    Re assassinations. Recall that guy called "the engineer"?
    Israel put C4 explosive in a mobile phone he used, and detonated it when they
    heard his voice. It was surgical - not like the wholesale exploding of buses and
    restaurants undertaken by "the engineer."

    It's all a grimy business. But this is important - for the Arabs its about land and
    pride. For the Jew it's about survival.

    I posted this here months ago and few believed me. A friend and me asked a
    group of Arabs at work, "What would you do if you have a nuke?" and they all
    replied, "Drop it on America."
    At the time it was the Cold War and I reminded them that America had about
    10,000 nukes. "Doesn't matter" they chorused.
    I turned to my friend and said, "Doesn't it make you afraid?"
    Here were Arabs from Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan etc.. This was before the
    Gulf Wars. War without end - the Muslim way.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your claim that the animosity between Syria and the Jews - has been going on continuously since 700 BC - is abject nonsense on steroids.

    I am fully aware that things have been rather tense in the last 100 years.

    None of this -has anything to do with the Palestinians recognizing Israel.
     
  15. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ah, but "recognizing Israel" isn't the OP either.
    I found it interesting that Arafat stated that for him to sign off on the Oslo Accords
    would be for him to be assassinated. He is reported to have said that. Shortly
    after this the bombings in Israel began again.
    There is some dichotomy here - are we talking about different history?
    My take is that the Arabs talk about land and the Jews talk about borders. What
    offends many Jews is that the West Bankers did not mind being ruled from Amman.
    Somehow being ruled by Jerusalem is offensive, even though the Jews treated
    Palestinians better than did the Egyptians, Jordanians - plus Fatah and Hamas.
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) You brought it up - made the claim that the Palestinians have never recognized Israel
    2) it is part of the OP
    3) Your claim was false

    What offends many Palestinians is when the IDF shows up - and steals their land at gunpoint.
     
  17. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Imagine someone "stealing" your land, ie a Nth American Indian,
    BUT he doesn't touch 97% of it, and offers the remaining 3% by
    way of exchange of land already on his reservation.
    Some would say the native American owned it to start with.
    Some would ask where's the "theft"
    Some might wonder about the millions of natives already
    living happily on "your" land - enjoying a better standard of
    living than in the reservation and what they had centuries ago.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Imagine someone showing up at your house with soldiers and a bulldozer and telling you to get out.
     
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  19. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, okay. I get you. You are referring to the terrorist issue.
    Yes, Israel engages in a form of collective punishment by
    demolishing terrorist's houses. Doesn't work for Israel, but
    is Great Propaganda for the Palestinians.
    The Israeli thinking is that it might deter wannabe terrorists
    by making them think of consequences beside a few dead
    Jews, and being a martyr and having sixty virgins, ie my
    family are going to suffer. But terrorist families gets special
    bonuses I understand - and probably a whole new house.
     
  20. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am not referring to any terrorist issue - You have no clue what you are talking about and are now making stuff up. If it was a known terrorist from which the land was stolen - they would not be alive to tell the story.

    Do you have any idea how much Land Israel has appropriated over the last 8 decades - or is it that you just like apologizing for evil :)
     
  21. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, when you see an Israeli bulldozer pushing over a Palestinian
    house it usually means they are punishing the family of someone
    who stabbed or bombed someone, and gladly died in the process.

    Take a look at the map of the Middle East. Look at places like
    Shiloh, Bethlehem, Jericho etc.. These used to be Jewish towns.
    ALL the Jews in them were massacred, exiled into slavery or
    just driven out. And today the Arabs claim this land as their own.
    I should Jews should go home to Israel and Arabs should go home
    to Arabia.
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No it doesn't - You are making stuff up because you can't deal with reality - and can't handle the fact that it is the IDF who are the terrorists :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Time for a reality check :) https://www.amnesty.ca/blog/land-day-reminder-ongoing-illegal-land-confiscation-palestine

    In March 1976, Israel ordered the confiscation of 2,000 hectares of land that belonged to Palestinian citizens of Israel. In response, on March 30 of the same year, Palestinians held demonstrations across Galilee in the north all the way to the Negev in the South. Six Palestinians were killed and more than a hundred were injured.

    Following these horrific events, this day came to be known as Land Day or ‘Yom Al-Ard’, an annual observance in which Palestinians commemorate and demonstrate their commitment to the right and ownership of their land.

    Israel’s land grab: ongoing devastation
    Since 1967, Israel’s policy of constructing and expanding illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian land has continued unabated, and is one of the main driving forces behind the mass human rights violations resulting from the occupation.

    Over the past 50 years, Israel has:

    • demolished tens of thousands of Palestinian properties
    • displaced large swathes of the population to build homes and infrastructure to illegally settle its own population in the occupied territories
    • diverted Palestinian natural resources such as water and agricultural land for settlement use.
    The very existence of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories violates international humanitarian law and is a war crime. Despite multiple UN resolutions, Israel continues to appropriate Palestinian land and support at least 600,000 settlers living in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

    On March 30, 2019, Palestinians across the world will observe the 43rd Land Day to protest continued home demolitions and seizure of land by Israel to build settlements.

    Khan al-Ahmar: a village under constant threat
    Khan al-Ahmar is just one of 46 Palestinian communities in the West Bank that Israel plans to forcibly transfer to make way for illegal Jewish-only settlements. The village has more than 160 structures, including a school, a mosque and a clinic.

    On 24 May, 2018, Israel’s Supreme Court ruled in favour of demolishing the village. Less than two weeks later, the army began forcibly evicting its residents, violently attacking them and solidarity activists ahead of the displacement of the entire community. In response, the Palestinian Ministry of Education was forced to begin the school year for Khan al-Ahmar two months early, sacrificing the students’ summer holiday to protest the school’s impending demolition in an attempt to protect it from the bulldozers.

    Over the past 10 years, more than 25 homes in Khan al-Ahmar have been demolished by the Israeli authorities, and the daily threat of destruction continues.

    Decades of indifference to war crimes
    Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law. Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits:

    • the deportation or transfer of parts of the Occupying Power’s civilian population into the territory it occupies
    • the individual or mass forcible transfer and deportation of protected persons from occupied territory
    • the extensive appropriation and destruction of land and property.
    These are all actions entailed by Israel’s illegal settlements.
     
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  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Palestine has recognized Israel's permanence, with any final disposition being that Israel and Palestine will live adjacent and in peace.

    That's 20 years old news.

    Israel certainly does NOT recognize any right of return for Arabs who left Israel during the war that endangered them. In fact, Arabs in Israel live as second class citizens under Israel's light version of apartheid - not being allowed to live where they want to live, etc. Israel has moved to make all non-Jews second class citizens, by the way - not just Arabs, not just Muslims.

    What is it that you want to say to Arabs who are living in the open air prison that is Gaza - where they denied travel, imports and even exports, where Israel has destroyed water and electricity infrastructure, where people are denied such fundamentals as building material to regulid after airraids, bleach to purify water systems, food, medicine, etc.?
     
  25. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did you know....
    [​IMG]
     

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