About the Holocaust

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by stan1990, Mar 11, 2019.

?

Do you agree with the thoughts expressed in this thread?

Poll closed Apr 10, 2019.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  3. Maybe

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,501
    Likes Received:
    8,671
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You keep qualifying your figures with 'penal policy'. Why not talk about the people who were killed before they were ever covered by 'penal' policies? Why not talk about the people who died as a result of forced collectivization & food seizures? Why not discuss other regimes such as China & Democratic Kampuchea?

    'The process' you talk about had nothing to do with providing 'well being and positive rights', it was about asserting the control of a small number of people over the vast majority and implementing an ideology that consistently achieved the exact opposite of what you claim. It is worth noting that this pattern was repeated again and again over generations in different Communist and Socialist. states. Killing people in the name of ideology and party control was how the system worked, all that varied was the numbers.

    I'm not convinced that you are significantly different to the holocaust deniers we have here, you just go in to bat for a different evil ideology.
     
    Badaboom likes this.
  2. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The Nazis had access to ~11 million Jews according to the Wannsee Protocol. 2/3 of them were murdered. They had not enough time to kill them all.
     
    CCitizen likes this.
  3. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Yes, We have unfortunately most certainly forgotten 'Never Again'.
     
    CCitizen likes this.
  4. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,035
    Likes Received:
    4,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Both forms of totalitarianism, Nazism and Communism, were and are equally reprehensible with Communism claiming far more innocent lives than Nazism.

    If, as you say, Nazi ideology was built on the extermination with Jews being the first target, why were Jewish individuals among the high ranking members of the Nazi party(1)?

    Why did 150,000 full Jews and "Mischlings" fight honorably for the Nazi regime with some Jews rising to the highest ranks and receiving Germany's highest military awards with Hitler's full knowledge and approval (2)?
    Reluctant conscripts do not rise to the ranks of Generals or Admirals as did many of Germany's Jewish individuals.

    In addition to the many Jews who diligently fought for Nazi Germany, Slavs, Frenchmen, Asians, Hindus, Ukrainians, Blacks and many other diverse groups fought for Germany in Hitler's armies(3)

    Finally, if Hitler held such an extreme hatred for Jews, why did he maintain a platonic friendship with little Rosa Nienau(4), for example?

    With so many Jews and other diverse ethnic groups fighting for Germany with the full knowledge and approval of the Nazi High Command, extermination could not have been the foundation of Nazi ideology.

    (1) "List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent

    EXCERPT "Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of Jewish descent."CONTINUED


    (2) “Hitler’s Jewish Army”
    http://counterpsyops.com/2013/02/14/...-hitlers-army/

    EXCERPT “Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval.

    In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded(*)Germany’s highest military honor, the Knight’s Cross.

    Jews also served in the Nazi police and security forces as ghetto police(Ordnungdienst)(*)and concentration camp guards(*)(kapos).

    So what happens to the claim that Hitler sought to exterminate all Jews, when he allowed some of them to join in his struggle against Bolshevism and International finance capitalism?

    “If the Jews were permitted to serve in Hitler’s armed forces then there could not have been a Holocaust.”CONTINUED


    (3)
    "Adolf Hitler’s Armed Forces: A Triumph for Diversity?"

    https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/1/3/3102

    EXCERPTS " I ask those historians who still believe that Hitler and the Nazis were “white supremacists”: how do you account for the incredible degree of non-German and ethnic minority (i.e., 150,000 Jews and Jewish Mischlinge) collaboration during World War II? Again, some two million non-Germans helped the Nazis.

    The important thing to realize is that had the Nazis been as racist as most historians have argued, then they could not possibly have garnered the immeasurable level of support that they did."CONTINUED


    (4) "Remarkable tale of Hitler's young Jewish friend"

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46192941

    EXCERPT "According to the auction website, Rosa and her mother had joined the crowds outside Hitler's Alpine retreat Berghof in 1933 on his birthday.

    It is thought that when he discovered Rosa had the same birthday, he invited Rosa and her mother Karoline up to the house - where these photographs were taken.

    Not long afterwards, it was discovered that Karoline's mother had been Jewish, making Rosa Jewish in the eyes of the Nazi state.

    Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES

    Image captionHitler continued the friendship despite knowing her Jewish heritage

    But this did not dissuade Hitler from carrying on his friendship with girl, to whom he had sent a signed copy of the photograph."CONTINUED
     
  5. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    They thought they would be spared being murdered if they joined in.
    But I'm sure their time would have come if the Nazi regime had lasted longer.
    Until then, they served the Nazis as useful idiots.

    The roots of Hitler's hate:
    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-roots-hitlers-hate-25411
     
  6. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,035
    Likes Received:
    4,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male


    That still doesn't explain why many Jews choose to become high ranking members of the Nazi Party or why many Jewish individuals rose to Germany's highest military ranks and won some of Germany's highest military honors with the full knowledge and approval of the German high command.

    Individuals do not rise to the ranks of General or Admiral or earn the highest military honors simply by participating as a "useful idiot".

    If Hitler hated all Jews with the intensity that many suggest, why did he maintain his friendship with Rosa Nienau in plain view?

    Historian Veronica Clark asserts that:
    EXCERPT "The important thing to realize is that had the Nazis been as racist as most historians have argued, then they could not possibly have garnered the immeasurable level of support that they did. Even after Stalingrad; Spaniards, Slavs, Franks, and tens of- thousands of other non-Germans continued to fight for the Nazis on a volunteer basis."CONTINUED (1)


    (1) "Adolf Hitler’s Armed Forces: A Triumph for Diversity?"
    https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/1/3/3102
     
  7. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Hitler often acted illogically. Many of his subordinates didn't always understand him either.

    This essay might interest you: https://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/1998_2_1_steiner.pdf
    Exceptions from the anti-Semitic Nuremberg Laws.

    Sorry, it's a large text in German. I hope that's not a problem for you. :)
     
  8. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Messages:
    7,875
    Likes Received:
    1,875
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Indeed, Nazis were the Greatest Evil in History. Neither Communists nor Capitalists nor any party in Modern USA can compare to them.
     
  9. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You're unfortunately wrong.

    In terms of number of victims, communists are the winners. They killed about 100 million people. Nazis murdered "only" 13 million (including Soviet POWs and Jews).

    The evil of communism is underestimated by many people.

     
  10. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,501
    Likes Received:
    8,671
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The evil of Communism is pretty well understood.

    The 100 million figure relies on some extraordinarily rubbery figures - usually collated with minimal documentation and a heavy dose of Cold War politics. The majority of those deaths are from China, specifically the 'famine of the hungry ghosts' in the late 50s. There are some truly ridiculous figures cited for that event, perhaps more than double the actual figure (and sometimes including 'children not born').

    A more realistic figure for Communism probably sits around 60 to maybe 70 million, though it could be lower. That is a truly horrific figure. However, in comparing it to Nazism it has to be remembered that Communism at its peak controlled something like a third of humanity and did so for generations. Nazism controlled a small fraction of that number of people for only a handful of years. Given a similar reach it is not unreasonable to assume Nazism would have had a similarly terrible death toll. Indeed, Nazi plans for the long term occupation of Russia could easily have resulted in tens of millions more dead.

    There is no 'most evil' here. There is a 'most effective movement', and it is Communism. Lenin created a repeatable model for insurgency, dictatorship and ultimately mass murder that replicated what happened in the USSR on different scales worldwide. Fortunately Nazism wasn't that effective, though authoritarian nationalist regimes & colonizing imperialist regimes (of which Nazism was one) have death tolls that exceed even Communism.
     
  11. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The Nazis killed ~13 million people in 12 years, while the Communists needed ~80 years for almost 100 million victims. In this sense, the performance of the Nazis was a little "better".

    Nazis only had less time, but they did not lack the lust for murder. :(
     
  12. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,501
    Likes Received:
    8,671
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Both ideologies did enormous damage.
     
  13. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,268
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There's some good info on what bodies look like after having been gassed with cyanide here.

    http://nazigassings.com/
    (excerpt)
    -----------------------------------------
    If any holocaust gassing claims were true, vast numbers of bright, cherry RED corpses would have always been present among the victims. Not necessarily all of the corpses would have been red--but certainly large numbers, probably the vast majority, would have been intensely red in appearance from cyanide or carbon monoxide and would have been remembered that way long after the war. That intense red coloring would have appeared within minutes of death, in the hypostasis and even in the pre-hypostasis condition, and would have remained present for several days at least. This is, however, contrary to nearly all of the statements from self-described “eyewitnesses” to those alleged gassings or of the supposedly huge piles of stark naked corpses. A-L-L of those "eyewitnesses" LIED: — they claimed the corpses were either “blue,” or “bluish” or “unremarkable!
     
  14. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How many said that the corpses were blue? Two or three eyewitnesses?
    What makes you so sure that they have lied and not just were in error?

    Forget it, bro. HC denial is, and always was, stupid and pointless. :(
     
  15. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    5,268
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't know exactly. Can you link to something?
     
  16. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,035
    Likes Received:
    4,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Thanks for the link. I'm reading it slowly because my German is a bit rusty after not speaking the language for 40 years.

    Ar you aware that the German Zionist Federation & World Zionist Congress shared the same views as the Nazis in wanting to preserve Jewish racial purity too.(1)
    Additionally, the Nazi government helped the Zionists to establish 40 camps and agricultural centers in Germany where prospective Zionist settlers could train for their new lives in Palestine both militarily and agriculturally as well as display the same flag that is now the flag of Israel (2)

    My reason for bringing up these details is to show how closely the world's Zionist organizations worked with the Nazi government in supporting the Nuremberg race laws and transferring Germany's Jews to Palestine.
    Both Zionism and Nazism shared the same views as far as maintaining racial purity.

    Finally, I appreciate your ability to discuss this volatile issue calmly and with civility.


    "Zionism and the Third Reich"
    https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html
    (1) EXCERPT "The Nuremberg Laws ... seem to me, apart from their legal provisions, to conform entirely with this desire for a separate life based on mutual respect... This interruption of the process of dissolution in many Jewish communities, which had been promoted through mixed marriages, is therefore, from a Jewish point of view, entirely welcome."CONTINUED


    (2) EXCERPT "In cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some forty camps and agricultural centers throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. Although the Nuremberg Laws forbid Jews from displaying the German flag, Jews were specifically guaranteed the right to display the blue and white Jewish national banner. The flag that would one day be adopted by Israel was flown at the Zionist camps and centers in Hitler's Germany.

    Himmler's security service cooperated with the Haganah, the Zionist underground military organization in Palestine. The SS agency paid Haganah official Feivel Polkes for information about the situation in Palestine and for help in directing Jewish emigration to that country. Meanwhile, the Haganah was kept well informed about German plans by a spy it managed to plant in the Berlin headquarters of the SS. Haganah-SS collaboration even included secret deliveries of German weapons to Jewish settlers for use in clashes with Palestinian Arabs."CONTINUED
     
  17. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,035
    Likes Received:
    4,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male


    While most "witnesses" to the non existent homicidal gas chambers claim that the gassed victims were blue or black, long debunked Yankel Wiernik claims in Chapter 5 of his holo-tale that all the bodies were yellow:

    "All were equal. There was no longer any beauty or ugliness, for they all were yellow from the gas."(*)


    (*) "A YEAR IN TREBLINKA"
    http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm#chapter5


    The fact remains that most people who die of cyanide or carbon monoxide poisoning have a reddish skin color:


    (1)"Johns Hopkins"
    http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/our-work/publications/cyanide-fact-sheet

    Signs and Symptoms

    EXCERPT
    "Other: acute lung injury, nausea and vomiting, cherry-red skin color."CONTINUED



    (2) "Cyanide Toxicity"
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507796/

    EXCERPT "Patients with cyanide poisoning will not be cyanotic but will have a cherry red color due to excess oxygen in the bloodstream."CONTINUED



    (3) "Cyanide Poisoning Treatment, Symptoms & Effects - eMedicineHealth"
    https://www.emedicinehealth.com/cyanide_poisoning/article_em.htm

    1. EXCERPT "The skin of a cyanide-poisoned person can sometimes be unusually pink or cherry-red because oxygen will stay in the blood and not get into the cells."CONTINUED

    (4) "Cyanide poisoning"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning

    EXCERPT "A cherry red skin color that changes to dark may be present"CONTINUED


    (5) "Cyanide toxicity: Dx
    https://www.openanesthesia.org/cyanide_toxicity_dx/

    EXCERPT "…cherry-red skin, bright red retinal arteries and veins,"CONTINUED
     
  18. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That fits together. At first, the Nazis wanted to deport the Jews. The decision to commit mass murder came later.

    It's a pity that hardly any German is spoken in America, even though so many Americans are of German descent. :(
     
    Grau likes this.
  19. stan1990

    stan1990 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2018
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    99
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    End
     
  20. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,457
    Likes Received:
    14,675
    Trophy Points:
    113

    haha!!

    name one actual "JEW" who was a high ranking member of the Nazi Party.
     
  21. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,457
    Likes Received:
    14,675
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yeah, and then the Nazis shut down all right-wing anti-Zionist pro-Nazi Jewish groups.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
     
  22. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
  23. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2018
    Messages:
    5,754
    Likes Received:
    3,162
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Grau has trouble differencing mischling from jews. Some mischling who got dispensation and temporary reprieve. In accordance to the Wansee accord those mishling were schedule to be either sterilized or outright killed once the full blooded jews had been dealth with.
     
  24. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,457
    Likes Received:
    14,675
    Trophy Points:
    113
    wrong!!!!!

    Emil Maurice was legally an "Aryan" under the Nuremberg Laws.

    Not a Mischlinge, but an ARYAN.

    He had ONE single male Jewish great-grandparent, which under Nazi Racial laws made him a FULL citizen of Nazi Germany, and an Aryan.

    To call this man a "Jew", is either a poor mistake, or 100% dishonesty.
     
  25. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Because Hitler made him an "Aryan".
    From Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Maurice
     

Share This Page