What Trump supporters would like the rest of us to believe.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by robini123, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Counter Intelligence investigations are done on behalf of the President as former US Attorney specializing in national security investigations noted.

    That means, as The Gateway Pundit notes, they are executed specifically to inform the commander-in-chief.

    “What I’m saying is not that the president sits there and directs that there be counter-intelligence investigations. What I’m saying is that unlike criminal investigations, counter intelligence investigations are done for the president,” McCarthy said.

    “The only reason to do them is for the president with the information he needs to protect the United States from foreign threats. They’re not like criminal investigations in that regard. So, in principle, the information is for the president. And here we know at various junctures we have actual factual information that this investigation was well known to President Obama,” he added.

    Hannity asked if the president knew about the investigation from the outset, wouldn’t he have been updated on its progress?

    “Sean, if things were working properly the president should have been alerted about it and informed. It was a very important investigation,” McCarthy added.

    “If they actually believed what they were telling the court that it was a possibility that Donald Trump was actually a plant of the Kremlin, it would have been derelict on their part not to keep the president informed,” he added.
    https://www.investmentwatchblog.com...ttempt-against-trump-from-the-very-beginning/

    Are we to believe that an counter intelligence investigation into the Republican candidate for President as to whether he was a Russian agent and colluding with Russia to influence the election and the President was not informed and did not give his approval for his subordinates to start such an investigation?
     
  2. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I asked you to back it up, you don't speak for the liberal Democrats in Congress.
     
  3. BuckyBadger

    BuckyBadger Well-Known Member

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    If Barr does his job, you will. Whether you will accept his findings would be another matter. I have already researched enough to see that Obama did order the spying on the Trump campaign and he used Lynch, Yates, powers and others to isolate himself and absolve himself directly.

    But make no mistake about it, Obama wanted Trump defeated badly enough to spy on his campaign. Between his DOJ/FBI/CIA, they also started the Russia hoax to shield Democrats from being exposed and prosecuted. We'll see in the end how it plays out.
     
  4. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. I am not sure that one party has ever held 66 seats (certainly in modern times), so such speculation is almost nonsensical. If your point was to say "how each side will vote is predictable", then claiming that he would be removed if Democrats held the Senate was a strange way of trying to make that point. The intent of requiring a 2/3 majority is to require widespread bi partisan support. No such support exists. It is not even close.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  5. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I never claimed that “someone running against an incumbent White House is immune to a federal investigation”. I do claim that those with a vested interest in the outcome of an investigation (Trump) should not play any part in said investigation as to do otherwise is to openly invite bias into the investigation. Conservatives rightly take issue with bias on the left but are soft on bias on the right. Tribalism, where there is ones set of rules for the “in” crowd and another for the “out” group.

    As to your 2nd question the answer is because it is unethical as it opens the investigation to bias. Trump should have recused himself. There is no mandate for Trump to be involved in the process at all.
     
  6. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    So... what's the problem with investigating the actions Biden took while in office?
    This, of course includes the impeachment investigation, where the Democrats have a vested interest in the outcome, both in terms of unseating Trump in the near term and defeating his election bid in 2020, and thus, should play no part.
    Right?
    The President would not investigate Biden, the DoJ and the Ukrainian equivalent to the DoJ would.
     
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  7. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You mean like the Steele Dossier and the Russian collusion investigation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  8. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I trust the DOJ to do the right thing by following the rule of law unhindered by political prejudice and bias.
     
  9. eschaff

    eschaff Active Member

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    I don't know why people choose to ignore the fact that pretty much the entire western world thought the guy was corrupt and wanted him removed. Vice President Biden was just the instrument of policy, not the initiator of it.
     
  10. Nemesis

    Nemesis Well-Known Member

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    I don't, either. It's very puzzling.
     
  11. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have seen this claim made ad nauseam from leftists everywhere. When I go to research this claim, I always find the same reference.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...orced-out-ukraines-top-prosecutor/3785620002/

    "...But sources ranging from former Obama administration officials to an anti-corruption advocate in Ukraine say the official, Viktor Shokin, was ousted for the opposite reason Trump and his allies claim.

    It wasn't because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company tied to Biden's son; it was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians, according to a Ukrainian official and four former American officials who specialized in Ukraine and Europe.

    Shokin's inaction prompted international calls for his ouster and ultimately resulted in his removal by Ukraine's parliament."



    If you read the above very carefully, it refers to the claims of ONE Ukranian official, and "Former Obama Administration Officials". They claim what you are claiming, and they say that his inaction prompted international calls for his ouster.

    So you are taking the denial from the Obama Admin and one Ukranian official as gospel? Is that all that it takes to refute something? This equates to "the entire western world"? Do you have any other sources corroborating this claim? Would you accept this if the tables were turned and you had one Ukranian source and some Trump admin officials denying something?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  12. BuckyBadger

    BuckyBadger Well-Known Member

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    I hope so too.
     
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  13. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I could care less if the Biden’s are investigated, yet as the president has a vested interest in in the outcome the investigation he should have no hand in it as to do so is to openly invite bias into the investigation. There is no requirement for Trump to play any part in the process.

    The Democrats are rotten to the core with bias just as are the Republicans. I agree with Trump that the impeachment process is a kangaroo court but unlike Trump I see Republicans as being kangaroos too. Justice will not be served when partisans investigate and judge partisans.

    Hard to claim that the President will not be playing a part in the investigation when his personal attorney was seen waving around documents on the Sunday morning news circuit a while back claiming to have evidence of wrongdoing by the Biden’s. Secondly there is no mandate for Trump to ask for an investigation and if he were ethical and wise then for the sake of appearances he should have recused himself.

    If a Democrat did what Trump has done then both the Republicans and Democrats would be singing very different tunes. The bias on both sides sticks out like a sore thumb to the objective while partisans will only see the bias of the side they oppose. Tribalism makes partisans predictable.
     
  14. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Perhaps you can answer.....

    I have seen this claim made ad nauseam from leftists everywhere. When I go to research this claim, I always find the same reference.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...orced-out-ukraines-top-prosecutor/3785620002/

    "...But sources ranging from former Obama administration officials to an anti-corruption advocate in Ukraine say the official, Viktor Shokin, was ousted for the opposite reason Trump and his allies claim.

    It wasn't because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company tied to Biden's son; it was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians, according to a Ukrainian official and four former American officials who specialized in Ukraine and Europe.

    Shokin's inaction prompted international calls for his ouster and ultimately resulted in his removal by Ukraine's parliament."



    If you read the above very carefully, it refers to the claims of ONE Ukranian official, and " 4 Former Obama Administration Officials". They claim what you are claiming, and they say that his inaction prompted international calls for his ouster.

    So you are taking the denial from the Obama Admin and one Ukranian official as gospel? Is that all that it takes to refute something? This equates to "the entire western world"? Do you have any other sources corroborating this claim? Would you accept this if the tables were turned and you had one Ukranian source and some Trump admin officials denying something? Would that equate to the "entire western world"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  15. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
  16. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Heh.
    Ok. Thanks.
     
  17. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you already have your example.

    The impeachment inquiry is another example of "investigating a political opponent".
     
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  18. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Except Democrats don't restrict their scorched earth policies to politicians.

    Look what they did to Kavanaugh.
     
  19. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Aw look, another person who jumps to inaccurate conclusions about me. Did you get it all out? Do you feel better now? Can we now dispense with the ad hominem’s and get back on topic?
     
  20. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I agree which is why I also agree with Trump that it is a kangaroo court. It is illogical by my measure of logic to allow partisans to investigate partisans.
     
  21. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Neither do Republicans. Both Republicans and Democrats tend to accuse the other for doing that which they do themselves. The objective easily see the bias in both parties while the partisans tend to only see the biases of those they oppose.

    If your argument is that Democrats are worse then I say that in a race to rock bottom that 2nd place is nothing to brag about and that it is easily predictable that each side will say that the other is guilty of the greater crimes and biases. Tribalism makes partisans predictable.
     
  22. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Compare and contrast for us the worst Republican attack on a Democrat and vice versa.

    Lets see if, objectively, you're right in that we have anything close to similarity.
     
  23. eschaff

    eschaff Active Member

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    "But there is a long list of Western organizations, governments, and diplomats, as well as Ukrainian anti-corruption groups, that wanted to see Shokin fired.

    They include the International Monetary Fund, the European Union, the U.S. government, foreign investors, and Ukrainian advocates of reform."

    https://www.rferl.org/a/why-was-ukraine-top-prosecutor-fired-viktor-shokin/30181445.html

    "EU hails sacking of Ukraine’s prosecutor Viktor Shokin"

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...-ukraine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190
     
  24. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    According to whom? The articles listed do not make that clear.The fact that a few people mostly unnamed and a few named, make denials or obfuscations are not exactly proof positive of anything . That is the larger point. The left acts as if this has been conclusively proven and what you really have is a small group of people providing those denials and stating that the entire western world knows. Without question, the Left would never accept a small group of people denying anything relating to Trump. There are FAR more people, including the actual President of Ukraine that have denied any sort of quid pro quo, yet oddly, that doesnt seem to satisfy your ilk, yet you expect it to satisfy Conservatives when discussing Burisma. I wonder why?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  25. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    No different than the 'colluded with Russia' farce.
     

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