What Trump supporters would like the rest of us to believe.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by robini123, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I know of no way to come to an objective conclusion as to which is worse and do not care as 2nd place is nothing to brag about. Instead of fixating on the sins of the left, those right of center would be better served by taking a hard look at the right in a brutally honest and objective way in an effort to identify, mitigate or eliminate flaws from within. If the left and right spent as much time honestly looking inward as they do looking at the other side, America would benefit. If the right and left critically analyzed themselves with the same tenacity that they critically analyze the other, America would benefit.
     
  2. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All of whom were involved with the Obama administration.

    AntAC is a Soros group.

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaig...-drop-probe-of-george-soros-group-during-2016
     
  3. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'd say scope is pretty important when you only have two examples to compare.
     
  4. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    “What I’m saying is not that the president sits there and directs that there be counter-intelligence investigations.” Source, The Gateway Pundit. Your source goes on to make claims based upon assumption as to what president Obama knew. To support a claim that Obama spyed on Trump requires more than speculation.

    Upon reviewing your 2nd link I see no proof that Obama ordered the investigation. As I assume you disagree, please post a direct quote from your links that prove for a fact that Obama ordered the investigation into Trump. Please keep in mind that facts do not rely upon indeterminate words such as “if, may, perhaps etc.”
     
  5. eschaff

    eschaff Active Member

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    The second article quotes Jan Tombinski who was the EU envoy to Ukraine at the time of the writing of the article. I've been looking at several articles that cite the IMF. I'm not internet savvy enough nor do I really have the time to find an "official" statement from the IMF or track down official statements from numbers that might satisfy you. I've seen direct quotes from at least two people who worked directly for Shokin and references to a few more. I think that you're predisposed to thinking the former Vice President is guilty of this, so I'm not sure what it might take to convince you.

    As an aside, I'm not sure what "ilk" you think I'm a part of. My post has nothing to do with whether or not President Trump asked for an investigation in exchange for the investigation. I just believe, and think that it has been proven, that Vice President Biden didn't initiate the call to have Shokin dismissed. It was the policy of the US and desired by many other nations and organization. He was the instrument, not the initiator.
     
  6. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    As the reason why the democrats did not widen the scope of the investigation is not part of the OP and thus is off topic, I feel no obligation to source off topic claims. If you do not trust my observations then a simple Google search will answer your question. Perhaps start another thread on the topic if you like.
     
  7. eschaff

    eschaff Active Member

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  8. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do this:

    Find me a statement from another organization calling for the removal of the Ukranian prosecutor.

    Not "there were international calls" or "I heard these people wanted him removed".

    Direct quotes from someone in the EU or elsewhere calling for his removal.
     
  9. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I personally have never heard of Jan Tombinski, as I am sure neither have you. You are missing the point. You are pointing to the words of a very few people, and as I already characterized them as "some named and some not". That is not proof. That is an assertion. For example, The actual President of Ukraine has stated there was not any sort of quid pro quo, and many administration officials have said the same. Is that enough to put the issue to bed? Of course not. The same thing applies to the claims about this particular prosecutor. Further investigation is most certainly warranted into the Ukranian prosecutor, just as you would say that further investigation is warranted on potential quid pro quo. You cannot insist upon turning over every stone against your opponents, but then advocate for taking the word of a few people when it is your side. There is a happy medium there, and that happy medium is not being struck if you insist upon in depth investigation on quid pro quo and then turn around and say the Ukaranian prosecutor allegations have been debunked based on the words of a few people. Everyone has a "few people" that will take up for them. The existence of those "few people" surely doesnt supplant the need for an actual investigation. Nobody is saying that Biden should be arrested. They are merely saying that some level of investigation is warranted.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  10. StarFox

    StarFox Banned

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    The dipshits legacy was running against Trump and he knew it. He knew Trump would undo all the damage Obama did to this country and he wanted to stop that from happening.
     
  11. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, why do you ask?
     
  12. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What farce?

    House Tells Court Impeachment Probe Is Looking At Whether Trump Lied To Mueller
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/...ury-impeachment-trump-lied-manafort-wikileaks

    The problem being how to get to the truth since Stone is a liar who isn't cooperating, Manafort is a liar who isn't cooperating, Trump is a liar who isn't cooperating, and the DOJ is being run by Billy the Bagman who from the beginning has tried to hide the grand jury materials from Congress.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  13. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Gee... the left never says that applies to Trump.

    The point here is not to charge Hunter- but to investigate the very unusual circumstances that involve our last VP with a very corrupt situation, and why that VP was trying to get the prosecutor investigating it removed. You don't charge someone until you have verified that what appears to be improper actually was- even if it's obvious. Unless you are with the left, and then the rules don't matter so much. So long as it's to their benefit.
     
  14. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Its funny how they so quickly forget their arguments as to why they need to investigate Trump....
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    That goes to the heart of the issue doesn't it? You can't be bothered to look at a government investigation into a rival political campaign, but are on red alert about about another government investigation (Trump asked for cooperation with the Attorney General) on someone who worked for a company that he had no business working for that the government (well Biden) demanded that the investigation be dropped in order to get aid money...ack! quid pro quo!

    I wouldn't be bothered as much by the hypocrisy since it's fairly common on this forum from so many others who are nothing but partisan hacks, but you claim a higher ground than that when so far, you've simply been engaged in partisan hackery.

    There is a DoJ investigation ongoing (probably more than one) that should help make all things clear. I anxiously await the conclusion and results, how about you?
     
  16. eschaff

    eschaff Active Member

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    I did that already. Jan Tombinski was the EU envoy to Ukraine.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...-ukraine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190

    The first few paragraphs pretty much spell it out. I'm not sure what you're looking for. Are you asking that I post some sort of official cable between the EU and the United States saying "please do everything you possibly can to remove this man, and if the Vice President is the one that actually delivers the message then, for anyone who may be reading this at a future date, we fully support this and want to assure you that this action is, in no way, indicative of corruption"?
     
  17. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In your article:

    Mr Tombinski said the EU was also concerned about the resignation or dismissal of several “reform-oriented” prosecutors and reports that Mr Shokin’s office was investigating a “highly-respected” anti-corruption group – an obvious reference to Kiev’s Anti-Corruption Action Centre, which had fiercely criticised Mr Shokin.

    AntAC was a Soros group working with the Obama administration.

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaig...-drop-probe-of-george-soros-group-during-2016
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  18. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The EU in many cases does the bidding of the US. Shokin was investigating Burisma and that investigation ended when Biden threatened Ukraine. Even Yovanovitch doesn't know why the investigation was ended but Biden does.
     
  19. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah.....we were fine with Obama setting up this "Deep State" thing, covering for Hillary and ensuring the "insurance policy" just in case she didn't get elected. The Steele Dossier was the biggest example (and only example) I have seen of foreign interference in trying to overturn an American election supported by the Democrat Resistance group.
     
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  20. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is about impeachment and Mueller was brought into this and your claim that now that we have an impeachment going that TWO YEARS of investigation has not brought a charge into this impeachment is because it would take too long? We already had the Judiciary Committee hearing where Mueller testified and presented his findings. And now with this in progress impeachment you are asserting the Democrats are not impeaching him on Russian collusion and being a Russian agent and then obstruction of justice is because it would take too long? The absurdity.
     
  21. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    So they've given up on the Ukraine phone call and now move to the Mueller questions. The Mueller investigation is over. No crimes were presented, no charges brought. If it is a perjury claim then it would have to have some materiality to crime be charged. Well? Thsi supposed false statement is material to what?

    It will never end will it, always creating something ANYTHING for the "HE MUST BE IMPEACHED!!!!" mantra.
     
  22. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    It was a counter-intelligence investigation which as Andrew McCarthy notes is done on his behalf and to aid him in his duties. And to again insinuate that the CIA, the FBI and the DNI had some evidence that Trump was some Russian spy and operative and were starting an investigation into this opposition Republican nominee for President and they hide it from the President and they did not seek the DIRECT authorization from the President to begin this counter-intelligence operation which they are required to inform him off in the first place and then keep him abreast at the LEASTS is absurd else we had FAR MORE problems in the Obama administration than we ever imagined.
     
  23. eschaff

    eschaff Active Member

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    So, some Ukrainian reformers, the EU, the IMF, and the entire Obama administration all conspired with Vice President Biden to protect his son? :wall:

    I'm done. Have fun.
     
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  24. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm not sure what is the distinction and why it is so important to you. Are you asserting that a counter-intelligence operation was begun into the opposition candidate of the President without his knowledge and approval? REALLY? Do you realize the gravity of that assertion? Can you post an exact quote of Trump directing the DOJ to begin a criminal investigation into the corruption in the Ukraine and how it may have branched into corruption within our government? All Trump ask of Zelinsky was his cooperation in AN investigation and we know Barr had begun that investigation and Durham was assigned to it.
     
  25. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well as the Ambassador testified there was a request it be investigated and the Obama administration said he was so involved it his sons illness he could not be bothered with an investigation so they dropped it.
     

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