Can impeachment be legitimate if no laws are broken?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Asherah, Nov 20, 2019.

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Can Impeachment be legitimate if no laws are broken?

  1. Yes

    24 vote(s)
    49.0%
  2. No

    25 vote(s)
    51.0%
  1. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    No, that's not your problem. Read the statute again.
     
  2. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    It's possibly bad. It's just not bribery.

    Here's another problem. Go to the vanilla bribery statute, and you'll have to get over this initial hurdle.

    (a)For the purpose of this section—
    public official” means Member of Congress, Delegate, or Resident Commissioner, either before or after such official has qualified, or an officer or employee or person acting for or on behalf of the United States, or any department, agency or branch of Government thereof, including the District of Columbia, in any official function, under or by authority of any such department, agency, or branch of Government, or a juror.[.]

    I think it's 18 USC 201. I am happy to consider a diggerebribery ststuye that covers what Trump tried to do.

    And I have some other defenses I think Trump should present.
     
  3. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    It's possibly bad and a good reason to vote for someone else in 2020. It's just not bribery.

    Here's another problem. Go to the vanilla bribery statute, and you'll have to get over this initial hurdle.

    (a) For the purpose of this section—
    public official” means Member of Congress, Delegate, or Resident Commissioner, either before or after such official has qualified, or an officer or employee or person acting for or on behalf of the United States, or any department, agency or branch of Government thereof, including the District of Columbia, in any official function, under or by authority of any such department, agency, or branch of Government, or a juror.[.]



    I think it's 18 USC 201. I am happy to consider some other federal bribery statute that covers what Trump tried to do.

    And I have some other defenses I think Trump should present.
     
  4. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    it still is that Trump bribed a foreign power with tax money for personal political gains. I don't recall that such a thing has to succeed to be considered to be criminal.
     
  5. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    You're hung up on attempt, which, yes, of course is a crime, but ...

    if and only if the attempted act is a crime. I have showed you the problems with the bribery statute and invited you to cite a statute that specifically bars what Trump did.

    Another slight problem is that Trump was vague on details of what he wanted and silent on what he'd do if Ukraine didn't come through.
     
  6. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    There is the possibility that the mpeachment articles could just charge him with "bribery" and let the senate declare that such is too vague to convict, and that anyway what Trump did does not constitute bribery under any particular U.S. law.

    Then the Democrats can say he beat it on a technicality.

    This is all designed to embarrass Republicans politically in 2020 anyway. No objective person really believes Trump committed an impeachable crime.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
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  7. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    No laws need to be broken, but there needs to be something serious going on. Something that threatens our country directly.
     
  8. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    Well, everything is serious to somebody. But asking Ukraine to conduct an inquiry into corruption does not threaten the country.

    Another thing: bribery involves payment to a public official to do something he isn't supposed to do, as in "look the other way"when encountering rats in a commercial kitchen that a health inspector is reviewing.

    Conducting an inquiry into the legality of the Biden arrangement under Ukrainian law doesn't seem illegal per se. The fact that it might redound to Trump's political benefit I don't doubt, but that's not the test for bribery. I say "might" because, if there's nothing illegal there, then Trump would get egg own his face.
     
  9. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    It appears on the surface that Trump attempted to bribe Ukraine, but this is a convoluted issue with nuance. The biggest problem is that it rests on the intentions of the president himself. In my opinion the Democrats thus far have not proved his intention was to bribe Ukraine.
     
  10. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    Well, there you go...
    That's what the transcript pictures rather clearly.
    That's what people are saying under oath as how it went down.

    The only thing what this is about, is how politicians are going to vote on this.
    And those are some real "reliable" people. Not known to crack down under pressure of special interests groups etc.
     
  11. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    Yes, but it doesn't meet the definition of bribery.
     
  12. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    You go and make an attempt to bribe a cop. See how your alternative idea of what bribery means will go down. lol
     
  13. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    I already explained two different problems with your analogy. You ignored both so I won't waste my time further.
     
  14. GrayMan

    GrayMan Well-Known Member

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    No but impeachment for any other reason will be political suicide.
     
  15. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    You called it a crime yourself.... by saying "You're hung up on attempt, which, yes, of course is a crime".
    You ignored that, so you're just wasting peoples time here.
     
  16. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    More nays than yeas so far. This is a sad statement of Americans' ignorance of their own system of government and of how much partisan ideology warps Americans' political thinking.

    We can't have a functioning democracy when so many of its constituents are sheepish ignoramuses led around by wolves dressed as shepherds.
     
  17. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    It has long been said that Nixon's coverup was worse than the Watergate break-in. Interesting how that impeachment is not remembered as any kind of political suicide, and for that matter how he actually resigned rather than face an impeachment vote. Now we have a president who has done something worse than Watergate, yet the country is very much polarized over it, just as it is always politically polarized in modern times. The only explanation for this difference is the fake news machine that props the current president up with an endless barage of propaganda and disinformation targeting the Democrats as well as the politically independent institutions of the government, such as the FBI and Bob Mueller. No matter the facts, we get inundated with pro-Trump fake news online. None of this existed when Nixon was facing impeachment, and that left the American populace much better informed, ironically enough, because factual reporting was not ignored or buried under mountains of disinformation and polemical fake news taking aim at the investigators and at Congress, establishing an alternative narrative based on "alternative facts." Nor did Nixon behave like Trump, for that matter, embracing and propagating conspiracy theories and constantly attacking the institutions of government as a "defense," tearing the country apart in an effort to save himself.

    We're in quite a little **** storm now with this raving cult leader on the one hand and an internet full of fake news designed to boost him and harm everyone who would accuse or investigate him on the other hand.
     
  18. GrayMan

    GrayMan Well-Known Member

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    @Durandal

    It used to be only a hand full of companies controlled the 'narrative' of information being provided to the nation. Now with full access to the internet and every one being able to communicate the people no longer are controlled by that one narrative. It is now true freedom. Yes some false information is strung around but that can be verified. The difference between the left and right today is not the difference in facts but what narrative is being given.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  19. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    Yes, murder is a crime too. I admit it. So is attempted murder. But not all homicides are murder.

    This is why we have trials in this country. We don't just rubber stamp whatever theory a prosecutor or chairman of some committee advances, especially if they are advanced by an overtly political opponent, as Adam Schiff is. We give the accused the presumption of innocence, the right to present a defense, and an unbiased jury to ultimately decide guilt or innocence.

    When I say you are hung up on attempt, I don't mean that attempt is not a crime, I mean that you have to show that if the act had been consummated, thay it would have been a crime. I jahe explained why it isn't, or at least why it may not be. You sound like you are ready to convict the President without a trial.
     
  20. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    "There's no crime there."

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...howitz-backs-trump-after-impeachment-hearings

    - Alan Dershowitz (liberal Democrat, Hillary supporter, criminal defense lawyer, professor of law at Harvard Law school).

    Too many people are ready to ignore all defenses and remove Trump without a trial, and without hearing arguments like that of liberal Professor Dershowitz.

    They are a bigger threat than Trump.
     
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  21. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    Alan Dershowitz is neither sheepish nor an ignoramus. He is a distinguished professor if criminal and constitutional law. He voted for Hillary and laments her loss. And he says you're wrong.

    If crimes are not your prerequisite (though the constitution says they are) what is?

    The founders considered and rejected maladministration as a ground.
     
  22. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Just remember, it will now be okay for Democratic presidents to request and accept foreign involvement in our domestic elections. It will be just as bad when they do it as it was and is when Trump does, but now nobody on the right will be allowed to criticize it.

    You've already given up all credibility to criticize dishonest or corrupt politicians by voting for Trump. You've just ceeded even more decency in order to dismiss this latest wrongdoing.

    What will be Trump voters be left with by the time Trump is finished? Will they have credibility and integrity for anything?
     
  23. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    we're not discussing murder. You're just distracting.

    That's not how an impeachment works.
    Seems you're objecting to the rules we all agreed upon about how to impeach a president, now that it starts to look iffy for Trump.
     
  24. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    I'm happy to explain this again. If Trump is charged with statutory bribery, the charge won't because the President of Ukraine is not a "public official" for purposes of part a(1) of the statute criminalizing bribery.

    (a) For the purpose of this section—
    (1) the term “public official” means Member of Congress, Delegate, or Resident Commissioner, either before or after such official has qualified, or an officer or employee or person acting for or on behalf of the United States, or any department, agency or branch of Government thereof, including the District of Columbia, in any official function, under or by authority of any such department, agency, or branch of Government, or a juror;

    If Trump is charged under section (b)(2), which provides:

    (2) being a public official (Trump) or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for: (A) being influenced in the performance of any official act;

    Trump will also beat the rap. He is a public official, of course, but your problem under (a)(2) is that the investigation of Biden will not be deemed a "thing of value personally." It may be valuable, but the statute is talking about a quantifiable payment of some kind, not some vague investigation that might yield a political benefit. (Remember that since the Bidens are oh-so-innocent, the investigation cannot produce anything of value to Trump even under a broader definition of value.) I'm not sure whether a Ukrainian investigation constitutes an "official act," but I doubt it.

    Now, the Democrats may just charge him with "bribery" and hope no one notices that it doesn't fit the definition of bribery in the federal statute which they themselves wrote(!), but if I am noticing it, the senate will notice it.

    There may be some other statutory crime of bribery that this loose goose request to "investigate the Bidens for me" falls into, but I and Harvard Law Professor Dershowitz are unaware of it. If you can cite one, please do.
     
  25. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    Is that directed at me? I didn't vote for Trump. Neither did my main man Prof. Dershowitz, who's says, in his wisdom, "there is no crime there."
     

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