Civics Education in the US

Yep. Just examine the decline of education in almost all measurable stats since Jimmy "nuts" Carter started the Department of Education for proof

 

I will make two points. 1.) I'm taking a guess and that's because you were in agriculture. I get that completely. Farming is hard work. I know lots of people that worked that hard, but they didn't make it. I think one of my favorite expressions is "For every Thomas Edison, there is a Nicholas Tesla who dies forgotten in a hotel with only a box of crackers to his name." The simple fact is hard work isn't what makes a person stand out. It's connections to others that make someone wealthier. I'm willing to bet as you grew up you did clubs, organizations, went to church, etc. that gave you and the rest of your class skills needed to succeed. Hard work played a role yes, but it wasn't the deciding factor.

You benefited from welfare, yet deny it to others because "it's wrong". How do we know that you aren't denying to others what made you succeed? I don't mean this in a cruel way, like you are maliciously hurting other people by denying them your path to success. Rather, isn't it a kind of cruelty to deny to others what you had?

I'm sorry, what did that have to do with what I said?

 

Ok. What did I have that I’m denying to others? I came from poverty. Not one day of my education was taxpayer funded unless you count 2 years of state university for which I paid cash out of state rate. No clubs, no good old boy connections. Yes, church is partly responsible for me not making bad decisions and for teaching me charity is better than theft. Incidentally this is where you go wrong I believe.

For example. If I had worked the same hours etc. but had kids out of wedlock, I would not be where I am today. If I had played video games at night instead of researching corn hybrids or reading about marketing strategies I wouldn’t be where I am today. If I went out to eat three times a week instead of making extra land payments I wouldn’t be where I am today. If I had a couple DUI’s and accompanying court cost and legal fees, I wouldn’t be where I am today. If I traded for new pickups every year I wouldn’t be where I am today. If I had married a high maintenance woman that didn’t share my goals and work ethic I wouldn’t be where I am today.

You are right. Hard work isn’t enough. It has to go hand in hand with not doing stupid things. All choices have consequences.

So. What did I get that I’m denying anyone else? Please be specific. What did I have that isn’t available to someone else? Are people forbidden from attending church? From paying tuition and attending school? Am I denying someone the right to live within their means? Am I forcing anyone to buy a new vehicle? Or forcing someone to impregnate their baby mama?

 

I'm worried you confuse hard work with faith in tomorrow. If you didn't go to a state funded school, your parents could afford private school. I'm sorry but the more I hear you talk, it sounds like you're not realizing how lucky you had it. I don't mean in terms of material possessions. I mean simply by the fact you had faith in tomorrow. Tomorrow could be better than today, because you knew you had the chances to do better. You don't study market strategies if you don't think you can run a business or be in that position. You don't make land payments on land you know one day will be yours and yours alone. It is this faith in tomorrow you have that makes you unique. I would be willing to take a guess you had a childhood hero you could relate to. I can safely say it would take until high school for me to have that. Why do you have that? I don't think that came from just anywhere. If we add Maslow's hierarchy of happiness, this would mean you have access to basic needs like food, shelter, education in order to realize the higher needs of self realization. Now I don't think that's true, but I am interested in what you think about it. Am I wrong?

It's a weird belief I have that's inspired by the Spider's Thread. It's a good read if you have the time for a short story. Essentially if you relied on welfare, which to me it sounds as if you did to some extent, and deny it to others, you condemn yourself and others to HE double hockey stick. This is because the path that you took worked, and it would unfair to others to take away. I suppose another way of phrasing it is "if you had the chance to, would you want someone to take the path you took, or take the one you want now".

 

I’m happy to continue this discussion. In fact it is fascinating to me. But I need you to answer my question. What welfare did I have? You seem to know more about my life than I so I need that answer. Please be specific.

 

I’m taking a guess you worked in agriculture? So there’s that entire industry.

You went to a state school, which is a form of welfare.

In terms of anything more specific than that? No I don’t have anything more than that. I would think the basic assumption is we all benefit from state sponsored market failures, whether we realize it or not.

 

Thanks. I didn’t work in subsidized agriculture until I was in high school and college and then it was at wages far below minimum wage. Before that it was all landscaping, construction, and janitorial. The janitorial and landscaping funded the part of grade school tuition my parents couldn’t cover.

Yes, I admitted to attending 2 years of state university. I just don’t understand how I’m denying that to someone else. Tuesday I have to attend a state lease auction to renew my lease on an “80” of school land. So I’m aware of not only my property taxes, but also lease payments helping fund state university. Originally, the land grant university I attended was to be largely funded by private leases of granted land, not taxes.

Moving on. I don’t believe luck had anything to do with my education. It was hard work and sacrifice. I guess you could say I was lucky to have good parents but that isn’t luck either. It was simply them being responsible which should be the norm or default, not the exception.

I’m a little confused how we’ve moved from welfare, to luck, to faith. Anyone can have faith. It’s free. The government doesn’t have to supply it. In fact, it seems government prefers to promote pessimism instead. A victim mentality for everyone based on some externality over which nobody but government can control.

There’s a lot to unpack here so remind me if I miss one of your points. On to heroes. Interestingly enough I’ve never had heroes. I understand the concept just like I understand cherishing a sweaty towel the performer at a concert throws your way. That is to say, I don’t really understand the concept. But that’s neither here nor there. I believe my confidence came from freedom if you want my opinion. From earliest cognition I pretty much did what I wanted. Now don’t misunderstand. My parents were strict. No eating between meals, no back talk, you work or you don’t eat, be seen and not heard in adult social settings, etc. What I mean is within those boundaries my brother and I were little anarchists. We grew up in the mountains. After school we were off riding bikes or motorcycles, rolling rocks down mountains, building cannons in my dad’s shop, burning ant hills with gasoline, or blowing up matchbox cars with fireworks. In the summer we may take off from home in the morning with a can of chili and matches to start a fire to cook over and not come home till dark. When I was about six I was given my first pocket knife and given the “cut away from yourself” talk. Within two hours I’d cut myself by cutting towards myself. I learned a lesson there. To summarize, I learned there are consequences to your actions. Big actions and little actions. Sometimes little actions have big consequences. I learned I could do most anything I wanted but to look things over first and be sure I was willing to live with the consequences.

Again, none of this was taxpayer funded and I’m not denying the same to anyone. Education, real education, is overthought these days. It shouldn’t cost $12,000 a year to teach kids what I learned basically for free. While I believe literacy is vital and foundational knowledge of science is priceless, they are both useless without motivation to put them to use. I believe that motivation comes from learning about rewards of work at a young age. Realizing the benefit of that work is only possible if you avoid mixing it with stupid behavior as I previously mentioned.

So Maslow...I find his theory interesting on one level but full of holes. I don’t think it accounts for individual personalities or traits. I mean I went to school with a guy that acquisition of a mate was number one before he hit puberty. He never cared about the lower orders. I’ve also seen the pyramid inverted with transcendence valued above even safety or nourishment. Personally, I’ve always valued learning ahead of most everything else. Safety is way down on my list of things I care about at all. Not only did I learn and begin to realize my potential before I was financially or even “nutritionally” secure, I learned from those deficiencies. I guess honestly I’ve never taken the theory seriously enough to fully think it out.

Finally, I wish everyone could (“would” because they can) take the path I took. I’ll reiterate. I’m not denying anything to anyone. I believe it is unethical to lead people to believe they can’t follow the path I did. But that is what is happening today. There’s always some excuse offered as to why “I can’t”. Will it always work? No. Anyone can be metaphorically or literally run over by a cement mixer truck tomorrow. But hard work and avoiding stupid behavior is THE key to success. Not welfare of any kind.

I’ll look up your short story unless you have a link to it online. I will read it if I can find it. I like short story format.

 

Ask the people who run this site.

You did not link your post to me, so I cannot know how it got to me ...

(You know, one hits the "Reply" button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen, which then copies-in a reply-link identifying the person to whom you are addressing a response... )

 

More hyperbole.

Got anything better than a one-liner sarcasm? The is a DEBATE Forum, not a Message Board.

Try harder ...

 

How’s this: government is evil.

 

Generally accurate. However, I do not like to attach attributes to ethereal entities such as "government" or "the state" as I am a rational anarchist. I like the De La Paz quote best to describe this position :

Basically the blame for evil actions evil can not be shifted to government, but to the elitist members within government whose acts are evil. This is consistent as people in government are generally seeking power over others, which in and of itself is an act of evil!

 

Why?