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Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by FatBack, Dec 8, 2019.

  1. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    That it's actually possible to support some things President Trump has done a disagree with other things? It's true, you actually can!

    Reading the forums here, one gets the impression, you are either *insert Trump supporter, group insult, here _ _ _ _ _ _* or you 100% hate the President.

    Believe it or not, there are many shades between black and white. One need not subscribe to simplistic, binary thinking.

    This will surprise some of our members but it's true.

    The group insults credited to President Trump supporters by the haters are over the top and pure partisan.
     
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  2. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    There are two kinds of posters on this forum and all over the net at large where politics is discussed, "cranks" and "pros." I am a crank and suspect you are as well. I don't mean anything particularly negative by crank, just sincere (time wasting, procrastinating, retired or semi) posters who either want to let off steam about politics or try to discuss and test their opinions. Cranks are in the majority on both sides here.

    "Pros" are "pay to post" shills working mostly for public union PR departments (SEIU/NEA etc.), Soros entities (mediamatters, CTR, moveon) and the like, foreign and other special interests. There are far more pros on the "Left" than "Right" in political fora. There is PLENTY of shilling coming from the private sector too, but that shilling is mostly product specific and conducted via advertising campaigns in conventional media. Not much use in getting people to eat more eggs with posts on social media, better to just buy an ad. There is lots of shill lobbying from both sides, but very little corporate shilling on the net that is general and non product specific. Here's a roadmap of one particular Complex political shill operation run by David Brock that likely employs some of the pros here (to see them in full force go to reddit politics):

    https://www.docdroid.net/Y4oDMGv/david-brock-media-matters-playbook-2017-2020.pdf

    Of course they don't call what they do paid shilling, but it's plain as dirt all through the document that's what they do.

    The primary "products" of the gov-edu-union-contractor-grantee-trial lawyer-MSM Complex are tax proceeds converted to financial gain for low output overpaid/overpensioned gov/edu employees and contractors, free stuff (transfer payments), and regulatory graft sold to cronies, which are hard to advertise and repellent to the private sector, so the Complex entities use tax dollars to pay shills to spread resentment narratives and social problem hype, all requiring ever more and larger, more powerful government to "fix" thus advocating AGAINST the people they are supposed to be serving, the taxpayer.

    Sorry for that preamble, but -that- and those are where most of the universally "Orangemanbad" stuff comes from. No reasonable adults thought -everything- was bad about the Obama Administration, and no reasonable adults think everything is bad about Trump's. Just like MSM shills though, paid net shills have marching orders to decry -everything- Trump as the end of civilization. This can be used as "shilldar" to discern pros from ordinary cranks.

    A more pernicious form of Complex shilling, conducted by the same entities as pay to post, involves specific harassment of "objectionably incorrect" individuals and attempts to get them fired, censored, deplatformed or even violently attacked. Ironic coming from the "tolerance" crowd, but that's a whole different topic. Pay to post pros are just scummy and dishonest, mostly counterproductive, but hey caveat emptor. The latter type of pernicious people who use social media to attack, bully and do real life harm to others, regardless of politics, need to rot in hell, and I'd love to get a chance to send them there... figuratively via legal procedures of course. We'll be seeing that kind of LW ideological bullying addressed by Congress when the Dems lose the House again in 2020, and it can't come a moment too soon.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  3. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I am just baffled by the binary and partisan posters, you literally worship the President and the ground he walks on, or hate his guts. The cant see any shade between black and white. It's all or nothing. Shilling for a profit, would go a long way to explain it but I think it goes beyond that.
     
  4. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    We see it here often, no matter what President Trump accomplishes, they would rather choke on used cat litter, than give him an iota of credit, for anything. Sit here and tell us he has done nothing but golf.

    Did any give him credit for whacking bagdaddy or making animal cruelty a federal offense? If he magically cured world famine, they would say...
    "The Bad Orange Man, plunges the world into an obesity crisis, he will soon start WW3 and a global recession".
     
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  5. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    As far as what I dont support...red flag laws, talk of amnesty for criminal aliens, to name some.
    He is not making friends, compromising on the Second Amendment.
     
  6. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    We’ve been groomed for combative two party politics for a long time. Divide and conquer. Simple as that.
     
  7. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    On some level, you have to choose to accept it.
     
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  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh, I’ve accepted that they are going to continue to try and strangle each other. I’ll be over here making money and enjoying life. :)
     
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  9. PPark66

    PPark66 Well-Known Member

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    Sure. The insult a decade or two ago was everything was relative: we had no standards or morals. It’s tiresome.

    It would be nice to talk policy and the cost of pursuing them and opportunity cost of not pursuing them and leave at that.
     
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  10. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is one poster who I have suspected for a long time to be a pro working for a foreign government. Possibly a second one as well. Can't prove it of course; it's just a strong suspicion.

    But I agree with you about how it goes here.

    Sometimes I wish we could discuss things as if there were no political parties at all. Just talk about issues, sans politics. Just the issue itself. Occasionally I find someone who does that and a good discussion ensues. But I admit, those are few and far between.

    For what it's worth, an example of that "shade of gray" that seems to be lacking here is how conservatives here speak well of Tulsi Gabbard. She has all the progressive bonafides. Medicare-for-All, assault weapons ban, $15 minimum wage, and the list goes on. Conservatives would oppose her on many issues. And yet they like her. They see a lot of good things about her. I am one of those people. So perhaps that's a bright spot where that black and white partisanship takes a rest for a change.

    Perhaps the worst thing I see here is rooting for the U.S. to fail, for strictly partisan reasons. That is really over the top. No American should do that. I didn't vote for Obama, but I remember when he first got elected that I was proud of America for electing its first black president, and I hoped for the best. I really did. I cannot, for the life of me, understand rooting for national failure for partisan reasons. And yet I see it here almost every day.

    Smartmouth Woman has a rule at Smartie's Bar and Grill: No politics. Just casual chat. I wish we could have a forum designated for non-political discussion of issues. No mention of Republicans or Democrats, Trump, etc, and no hostility - just the issue itself. It would have to be moderated closely.

    Seth
     
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  11. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree. See my post above.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  12. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I too, enjoy random conversation, sans politics.
    I was very optimistic when Obama was first voted in. I did not hate him because the talking heads told me to, my opinion was slowly formed, based on what he did. At the time (I was 28 when he was first elected) my Dad told me "the USA has seen it's best days".

    I did not want to believe him but certainly started to, as those 8 loonnggg years dragged on, in the economic doldrums.

    People hated President Trump, BEFORE day one, calling for impeachment, from the moment the results came in. They will hate him, no matter what.
     
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  13. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was skeptical of Obama, but I wished him well. I hoped he would be better than I feared. One of the things I grew so tired of was that I thought Obama condescended to the public. He was constantly telling us what our values are and what our values are not. It was as if he felt like our values were wrong, and he had come to correct us and teach us what they should be. I didn't like that about him.

    Other things ...

    Appointing Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State was a gigantic mistake. He shouldn't have let her anywhere near his administration.
    Then there were the wars against Libya and Syria.
    And weaponizing government agencies ...
    He was unsupportive of law enforcement I thought. And when Officer Darren Wilson shot Michael Brown, he fell for the "hands up" lie instantly, sending a virtual army of FBI agents to Ferguson to take a scalp.

    So, like you, I wanted to be cautiously optimistic, but he disappointed, and by the end of his term, I was glad it was over.

    I do see grey areas on most issues. I see problems I would be willing to compromise on with the opposition, giving them something they want in exchange for something I want. I believe there are solutions to our problems, but not if we can't talk to each other and work together. Any time you want to just discuss something, hit me up.

    Seth
     
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  14. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I quickly grew disillusioned of my initial optimism and like you observed, his arrogant preaching down to us, about who we are and what the USA means, was the biggest "tell" of all and his "world apology tour" was the clincher.

    I am glad that shameful episode in American history, is now history.

    Notwithstanding he is waiting in the wings and sniping from the sidelines, undermining all he can from his reduced position.
     
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  15. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, he's sniped from time to time, but not much. I expect he'll be invited to speak at the Dem convention and sort of pick up the speeches during the run-up to the election. We'll see. I'll bet he tells America what its values are again ... :blahblah:
     
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  16. Marine1

    Marine1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am afraid it has come to Party being more important than country with millions of Americans. I have been both Democrat, Independent and Republican. Was a Democrat from Kennedy all through Carter. That is when I switched to Reagan, switched again to Perot ( I was against NAFTA) Switched again to Clinton and then to Bush. I have no Party loyalty. But for years my five siblings were all Democrats. My Brother was even three time union President of our Local. None are Democrats today. This is not our Father's Party. It's nothing like it use to be. Kennedy would never recognize it today, still you have millions of Americans that will vote for what the Democratic Party was, not for what it is today. I can't understand that. I know many don't believe in open borders, allowing illegals, sixteen year olds and mass murders voting I know they don't believe in reparations for slavery. They don't believe in transgenders in women's lockers, bathroom, showers and sports. They don't believe in giving illegals free health care and Social Security. Many are split on health care and free college. But just how much can you be against and still vote for a party over just a few things you do believe in and so much you don't? I know many hate Trump, his personality leaves a lot to be desired. But what he has done for this country in just three years is mind blowing. Economist can't believe it. It's just not the economy. He has fixed so much, I don't think many Democrats can be against most of Trump's policies, even though they hate him personally. I can't help but believe it's mostly Party. We are married to the Party, good or bad.
     
  17. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To be fair, Obama prolly did a few good things, and I can't think of a one.

    But then again, I never grouped all Obama supporters as (pick an insult).

    'Everyone who supports the President is evil/dumb/racist' is a new level of ...something.
     
  18. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wish we could get another JFK. The left supporting gun rights and Civil Defense and EndTheFed? Well, it would be too awesome to even imagine at this point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  19. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I can't stand the man, either when it comes to policy or his personality. He was probably the least libertarian republican running, and he's a conman. Still, that doesn't mean that everything he's done has been bad, nor does it make anyone bad for supporting him. I've got no beef with the people who simply voted for him because they thought he was the best option; those people are at least typically honest enough to accept criticism of the man.

    He does, however, have a cult of personality that will either never accept any criticism of their dear leader and/or will desperately deflect by trying to shift the spotlight to someone else, either another politician or the person they are debating, anything but defend Trump on his own merits. These folks are particularly fond of dodging the statements of those they are debating through creative paranoia about some kind of hiiiiiiiidden motive, normally in the form of "What you reeeeeally believe is X, so I'm going to attack X, even though you've actually stated the opposite of X" or "You are a paid operative." To those I say, please either learn some intellectual honesty or seek professional help. There's also the dishonest "Orange man bad" rebuttal, which tries to accuse others of attacking the man without thought, while really showing that the respondent is attacking the poster without thought -- "Orange man critics bad."

    As for Trump himself, the good is . . .
    • He's lowering some taxes (though this will only help so much, seeing as he's also increasing spending to go with it . . . and most of the tax cuts are temporary . . . and he's raised other taxes that, collectively, make up the biggest tax raise we've seen since the 90s). Maybe the corporate ones will have some staying power, though, and that can encourage growth in the long term.
    • He's shown some interest in prison reform and has pardoned some people who probably should have been pardoned.
    • Maybe he's against frivolous wars? That seems to be his default position, when he isn't threatening war over Twitter. As I said when he took office, he's probably more anti-war than Hillary . . . though it may be more of a coin flip.
    The bad . . .
    • Probably the most big government and authoritarian of the R candidates, and seemingly having no regard for any limitation, check, or balance on his office.
    • Extraordinarily dishonest, even by politician standards
    • Virtually incapable of acting like an adult for a week on end.
    • Hates the 1st Amendment, waffles on the 2nd, and the least capitalist R running . . . maybe even the least capitalist candidate running. He's abandoning the basics of capitalism going back to 1776 and adopting a protectionist stance that shows a complete misunderstanding of what trade deficits are and how tariffs work.
    Good of you to admit.

    I'm doing grad level econ coursework now, and this isn't remotely true. Economists generally aren't surprised by Trump, nor do they credit him for the economy, which has continued to grow at about the same rate that it was growing before he took office.

    This hits the nail on the head, but it is a misguided loyalty that I never understand.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  20. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's not possible to oppose Trump and agree with some things he's done. He has done what Conservatives have been looking for years for a President to do but haven't found a President with the guts even when they found a President with the right thinking. That explains why he's hated by progressives and approved of by conservatives.

    Trump is brash enough at times and at times isn't as effective at making a point as many supporters would like, so it is possible to support Trump but disagree with him at times as we have seen.

    There has been an article posted on the web that shows how progressive justices vote the same way 90+% of the time while Conservative justices vote the same 80% of the time. It may, therefore, be the nature of the beast and not have anything to do with Trump.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  21. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Economics is not just what is in the text books. It is driven by emotions as much as much as economic theory. The president has more ability to hurt the economy than help it. Trump does not have to make radical moves in order to improve the economy. He favors business. The democrats tend to scare business owners with the threat of tax increases and restrictions. Reducing taxes and restrictions has the opposite effect. When Trump took office, the democrats said he would kill the economy. However, what happened was that it continued to improve well beyond what anyone expected. Whether Trump is responsible for the good economy depends on how you look at it. He let the economy do its thing and it has worked out very well.
     
  22. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    According to that logic, Obama is just as responsible. It is the same trend. A more observant person might point out that, if the same trend stretched across both men, then the greater likelihood is that neither is responsible. And while Trump is pro business in some respects, he is rabidly anti-business in others. You do realize that Trump has also raised taxes on businesses, yes?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  23. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    However, under Trump it has just kept on growing. There is no denying that. If you are talking about the tariffs, business owners realize that the tariffs are a temporary measure to level the playing field and it will get better. It is about emotions and optimism.
     
  24. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Adam Smith pointed out the problem with this mentality over two and half centuries ago. Tariffs don't "level the playing field." Nor is there actually any sign that "Tariff man" will actually treat them as temporary. I also encourage you to actually get out and talk to business owners; you are badly misrepresenting many of them.

    There is more to economics than emotion and optimisms. Costs are real things, and artificially inflating costs objectively destroys business value. Period. This is math, not just "But I'm bummed."
     
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  25. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Adam Smith was talking about keeping the tariffs. Trump is trying to pressure the Chinese and others to reduce or eliminate their tariffs
     

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