Let's put to rest another pervasive, false, right wing talking point.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Lee Atwater, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I keep hearing this.................."The articles of impeachment say absolutely nothing about Abuse of power to cheat in the elections. Perpetuating himself in power by illegal means."............................or something similar to that claim.

    That's just unequivocally wrong.

    Here is a quote from Article I.................................

    "Using the powers of his high office, President Trump solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, in the 2020 United States Presidential election. He did so through a scheme or course of conduct that included soliciting the Government of Ukraine to publicly announce investigations that would benefit his reelection, harm the election prospects of a political opponent, and influence the 2020 United States Presidential election to his advantage."
    ................................................................................................................................
    Now that that is out of the way let's dig a little deeper. Is the act of soliciting Ukraine's help in damaging Biden's candidacy in the 2020 election, and thus helping Don's, a crime?

    “Let me make something 100% clear to the American public and anyone running for public office: It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election,“ wrote Ellen Weintraub, chairwoman of the FEC. “This is not a novel concept.“
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/13/fec-election-foreign-trump-1364598

    Does that clear it up? Some still say no. Why? Basically, for the same reason Donnie J was not charged with a crime when he solicited dirt on Hillary from the Russians. A matter addressed at some length in the Mueller report. Team Mueller's conclusion was that because Donnie J was ignorant of the law...........and because of the difficulty in assigning a monetary value to the information he sought...........charging him with a crime that was able to be prosecuted would be difficult.

    Similarly, the Orange Fraud's attorney, Billy the Bagman, made the determination no law was broken (after the top CIA counsel contacted the DoJ by issuing a criminal complaint regarding the Zelenshy call) because a monetary value could not be assigned to Don's request to Zelensky of trying to find dirt on Old Joe, or to announce an investigation to do so. (Clearly this law needs to be clarified)
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tr...l-referral-whistleblower-s-complaint-n1062481

    However, as we know, the technical commission of a crime is not necessary to pursue the impeachment of a prez if his/her actions represent an abuse of power.
    https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article217126395.html

    Perhaps this is a stretch, but I think even Trumpette's will acknowledge, legal or not, it is an abuse of office, at the least, for a prez to use his power to extort a foreign leader in to helping him with the prez's re-election. It was the act that caused the WB to submit his complaint and thus change Pelosi's mind about whether to proceed with impeachment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  2. Rush_is_Right

    Rush_is_Right Well-Known Member

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    Might it be that none see any desire to debate with you?
     
  3. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Because there is no credible debate.
     
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  4. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    They know but they don't care. They are knowingly supporting a dangerous authoritarian who abuses power daily.

    This isn't a war of facts vs fiction. It is a war between good and evil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  5. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry but still no evidence and Abuse of Power is an opinion and not a crime.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  6. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    The simple fact of the matter is that Joe Biden has not yet been nominated as the candidate of the leftwing liberal democrat party. Nor did he have the nomination at the time of the phone call being made. Therefore it was not possible for Donald Trump to, somehow, interfere in the upcoming election for president of the united states.
     
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  7. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

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    There are no crimes(illegalities) listed in the articles of impeachment.

    'nuff said.
     
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  8. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have no doubt that is true. But we likely differ as to the reason.
     
  9. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nor is a violation of law a requisite for impeachment. Though the issue of whether crimes were committed is something the two sides disagree about. We know, at the least, some DoD and Pentagon officials were convinced the hold was illegal.
    Obstruction, the charge in Article II, is unequivocally illegal.
     
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  10. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, but................

    “Let me make something 100% clear to the American public and anyone running for public office: It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election,“ wrote Ellen Weintraub, chairwoman of the FEC. “This is not a novel concept.“
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/13/fec-election-foreign-trump-1364598

    The moment Trump solicited the help he was in violation of the law. Who in their right mind claims asking for an announcement your current #1 rival for the presidency is being investigated by a foreign government isn't an attempt to "receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election."
     
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  11. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    And lest we forget, Mueller's investigation netted 34 indictments!
     
  12. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    Anyone that believes this "..... Donnie J was not charged with a crime when he solicited dirt on Hillary from the Russians." has nothing of value to offer because it shows the level of perception is out of kilter. He did not do that. You're not alone though, I have heard several Democrats make the same claim based on the same sarcastic comment he once made.
     
  13. mpw8679

    mpw8679 Well-Known Member

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    And cleared Trump
     
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  14. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    No it did NOT.
     
  15. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    Might it be that none can challenge what was posted in any cogent manner

    Yes
     
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  16. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mueller declined to charge Donald Trump Jr. for meeting with Russian lawyer
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...-trump-knew-about-trump-tower-meeting-n995816

    Everything I wrote about Mueller's decision not to charge Donnie J is included in Mueller's report.
     
  17. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Perhaps they are just tired of your continual rants.
    The impeachment, like everything the democrats have tried to conjure up was a bust.
     
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  18. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    I am far from a Trump supporter, but what is there to challenge in a post like that? Everyone KNOWS Trump solicited Russia, the Ukraine, then China, then Nepal. One was sure to respond, eh? *sarcasm warning*

    Your ego only exceeds the idea that someone would believe that the world is exactly as the Democrats have painted it. To every story, there are at least two sides. You wouldn't know it by your post.
     
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  19. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are welcome to present the other side, if you dare try.
     
  20. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ~ The Trump campaign should have just hired Christopher Steel to do a fake dossier on a few candidates. Just tell him : " Hillary sent me" :razz:
     
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  21. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As you know, or perhaps not, your post represents a combination of factual inaccuracies and distortions of facts. Indicating you are a consumer of right wing media.
     
  22. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I hesitate to bother responding to this notion, because it has been addressed countless times and people like yourself consistently ignore the concept of what I am about to say.

    The debate is NOT as you put it whether or not soliciting help from Ukraine for the 2020 election is a crime. The debate is whether or not the act of asking for Ukraine's help in investigating Biden was an act of investigating corruption within the past administration or whether it is an act of asking for help in the upcoming election. You can suspect that it is about 2020 all that you like, but definitive proof of such does not exist. Perhaps your suspicion is correct, perhaps it is not. Perhaps it is a combination of the two. The problem that you have is that no such proof has been presented, and it is highly unlikely that irrefutable proof would exist even if your suspicion were 100% correct. You are taking your suspicion ( that his motive was 2020), and falsely proceeding as if your suspicion has been proven. It has not. The only proof that you have is that he asked for assistance in the investigation. The motive that you are proscribing is just supposition.

    Until you address this aspect, you are not addressing the actual debate. All that you are effectively doing is arguing a strawman, whether you realize it or not. If your desire is truly to understand the other side's position, then you would substantively address the notion of whether actual proof exists of his motive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  23. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Funny I've never heard that any where. Rather on odd straw man.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Witch hunts tend to produce such results - did you have point ?
     
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  25. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry but you sort of lost all credibility with your 100+ Mueller hoax nothing burger threads. I don't think folks have much of a desire to debate it with you. I am however glad to see you moved from Russia to ukraine. At least that's progress.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020

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