Educated vs "Non-Educated"

Under the Myers-Briggs personality classifications, I'm an "INTP": I don't seek power and I don't want to lead. I also reject being a follower and being told what to do.

I would say humanity is *mostly* divided between followers and leaders.

 

Is that why so many old men have no butts, they worked their asses off?

 

Every time I’ve taken those tests, I have been classified as INTP. I was thinking of saying, humanity is divided between followers, leaders, and those who sit on the side and wonder about the insanity of it all.

 

Bernie isn't a socialist, although he used to talk about government talking over industry. He may have changed his tune when China, the USSR, Eastern Europe, etc, gave up collective production.

Collective production in all industries has never been successful on a national level. When it fails, governments strong enough to have imposed collective production on society are tempted--and have often succumbed--to using force to maintain power.

This is obviously untrue and your belief, imposed by "haves" on "have nots" in capitalist societies, is why aggrieved "have nots" turn to socialism.

The human animal is what it is and successfully "teaching" it to be something other than its nature is problematic.

 

Authoritarians require followers.

 

You are conflating profitability and productivity. They are different things. I think you have a pretty good grasp of productivity in one dimensional practice, but you aren’t able to grasp it as a concept outside of profitability, which is often necessary.

Now you have confused productive investment with return on investment. Productive and non productive investments/assets are classifications of assets. Return on investment (ROI) is the correct term for what you describe in this post when discussing your investment. It is quantifiable whereas productive and nonproductive investments are predominantly binary classifications.

 

Yes. Authoritarian personalities follow authoritarians. I’m trying to figure out if you are sticking with your past theory that conservatives are the authoritarian personalities or if it’s a human condition across the political spectrum.

 

Ditto.

 

Unfortunately, no society with collectivized production has been organized in a way that works over the longer term. The question is whether or not socialists can figure out a sustainable approach.

Can we devise a capitalist system that doesn't exploit a hapless underclass? I think northern Europeans in particular--Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, etc.--are working on a solution.

Capitalism can become "big government tyranny," but there is potential for a democratic society to hold capitalists to account. Sweden solved its banking crisis by making bank shareholders responsible for the losses:

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23krona.html​

We're a very, very long way from that approach in this country.

 

I think that the follower/leader dynamic has existed ever since people have been people. Yet people evolve. Beginning somewhere around the 16th century or so, large numbers of people in Northern Europe began to question that idea. To claim that leaders should be elected by the people, and be held accountable. That people have individual rights. This was the rise of liberalism. In the grand scheme of things, we live in a liberal democracy. Republicans are more like conservative liberals than anything. While I view American conservatives as authoritarian in comparison to myself, they are far less authoritarian than the authoritarians in the Middle East and Africa. I think that the reason that that we, the United States, have been failing to bring democracy and peace to the Middle East and Africa, is because their cultures have yet to advance to where they can rise above the need for an authoritarian leader.

 

Nope... every right wing proposal has been aimed at screwing you.
You don’t even qualify for upper middle class. Take healthcare.
The right Fox News listener thinks they don’t pay taxes for healthcare. Their premiums and drug payments and co pays are dramatically more then countries with single payer. You're complaining about being skrewed, you're looking at the wrong party. They, they gop, screw the middle class every time they have one of their recessions. You want to align yourself with the rich who pay less, sometimes nothing ? You’ll be the one with loss of services, not the rich.

All male members in our family served in the military. We’re middle class. . None of us found a rich person on the front line next to us.....NONE.
Don’t tell us either they don’t get away with their wealth after Republican lead recessions.....they do. We don’t begrudge the rich who are accountable, we do begrudge the gop for carrying their water while we fight their wars and lose our property to them at the gop trough.

 

Sure, back when over 90% of the populous didn’t finish high school. Getting a high school degree then, was like an advanced degree now. You’re examples hold no water. Nearly everyone was unschooled. Their knowledge expectations were much lower. They just had to sign papers with an ‘ x”.

 

MBTI is largely pseudo-scientific as it is statistically irrelevant and mostly serve as a "just-for-fun"-test that is to sell to corporations.

 

Is this an accurate generalization when in many states the majority of people with less than a university education are Democrats?

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/party-affiliation/by/state/among/educational-distribution/high-school-or-less/​

Your view strikes me as propaganda put out by self-serving Trumpers who aren't doing much for those without university degrees, folks who often make less money. How so? Trump said he wouldn't cut taxes for rich folks when he was running for office, then turned right around and gave 85% of the tax cuts to people making $400,000 per year. Trump didn't get away with taking away guarantees against higher rates for those with preexisting conditions, but he's trying an end run by getting the courts to take it away.

Yeah, and a lot of Republicans think they're smarter than dumb socialist Democrats. At least some of who don't go with either political tribe roll our eyes at the almost nonstop BS.

We all know some people are smarter. Does that mean smarter people should have control over everyone else, assuming we can figure out who qualifies for a governing elite? I don't think so. It follows from my perspective it doesn't matter if those of us who don't measure up are Republican or Democrat.

Those who qualify for the elite, governing class could find themselves "out" as they age or otherwise don't measure up.

 

What the hell? I taught young(er) people--high school and adults--for decades. This generation of young people is better trained, better educated (there is a difference with training), more generous, less racist, less sexist, than previous generations in my lifetime.

 

You're sure about that, are you?

 

Do you have evidence supporting this rather curious conclusion?

 

Congress holds the purse strings - this is true - hence the term Establishment - responsibility for regime change wars rests with congress as well - and maintaining the status quo with respect to Healthcare - it is a group effort

 

I didn't say there was no lipstick - there were some small efforts in the right direction - but - the systemic issues were not tackled.

Are we going to blame "obstruction" for engaging in regime change wars as well ? - doesn't apply.

This is a group effort that has kept up the status quo - over many decades. When Blue has had the power to change - they didn't.

Not sure the HC spend is now - under the "Fiscal Conservatives" - but I would bet my horse that it is not lower then the 2017 figure of 3.5 Trillion.

The spend is so obscene that even some Conservative groups are looking towards Universal Healthcare. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-conservative-case-for-universal-healthcare/
The Conservative Case For Universal Healthcare

We don't have much time - before the system will collapse under its own fiscal weight.

 

Completely agree...but what do you call a system where business and industrial owns all government and Democracy is out the window?
....USA?

 

While I agree with much of your historical narrative I have to question your theory of where we are today. I see much more authoritarian leadership and more authoritarian personalities in progressivism than anywhere in America today. And I’m not denying it exists elsewhere. I’m not sure humans are giving up their authoritarian tendencies as much as they are trading specific tendencies for others.

Religious dogma prompted the enlightenment. But even though religion in the West has less authoritarian power, and people crave religious rule less, it has been replaced with authoritarian leaders who want to project economic power and by authoritarian personalities who crave abdication of personal responsibility for their economic standing. In reality, the enlightenment was all for naught, as most people in the west today desire rule. Just under a different banner. And economics is only one example. Personal health, responsibility to the earth, and many other areas are current dynamics where authoritarianism is rampant in leaders and followers.

It’s my opinion Nietzsche understood this and was trying to convey this thought in his “God is Dead-Madman Passage”. A lot of people think it only addresses religion and morality, but I believe it goes deeper than that.

 

I was not referring to the mandate. Obama went after freedom of speech, press, information.. reduced the transparency within Gov't .. legalized state sponsored propaganda.

Not only was Clapper not charged for lying to congress (felony 1) about the en mass spying program (felony 2) he was not even punished.

Obama's justification for this was "If we want increased security - we have to give a little" - parroting the Establishment main line as to how limitations to freedom are justified.

Near fell out of my chair when I heard that. Has the Harvard Constitutional Scholar - civil rights activist - never heard "Give me Liberty or Give me Death" and not know what this means.

never heard of Ben F "those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security"

The founders knew well the age old tactic of getting the masses to trade liberty for security over fear of an external or internal threat.

Stalin use fear of an external threat - taking away liberty under the banner of "Security for the Motherland"
Hitler's banner was "Fatherland Security"
Bush - lacking the creativity to come up with a new name for his banner ... "Homeland Security"

Under Bush it became our "Patriotic Duty" to trade liberty for security .... "Patriot Act". Obama changed the name to the equally Orwellian doublespeak "Freedom Act"

"If we want increased Security - we have to give a little"

This is a complete 180 on his previous position.

Under Obama - those that would out Gov't Crimes through legitimate means were persecuted harshly - (not talking manning/snowden) - those in Gov't committing those crimes - not punished.

How did the legalization of Pot go under Obama .. Mr "Civil Liberties" .. the war on Drugs was a war on liberty - and we know now that clamping down on liberty was the intended purpose of the legislators at inception. Demons they were.

Asset forfeiture went up under Obama - as did the Profit incentive "Profit Incentive: In 43 states, police and prosecutors can keep anywhere from half to all of the proceeds they take in from civil forfeiture—a clear incentive to police for profit."https://www.iheart.com/content/2017...il-asset-forfeitures-skyrocketed-under-obama/

 

How things work, and especially how they can work better, is what interests most of the engineers I've known.

Of course. I had a front end mechanic who could align a car pretty much by looking at it and only check his work with equipment. Damn, he was fast. But he could never design a vehicle, at least not with what he knew.

 

the GOP is only interested in cutting taxes on the rich and services for everyone else and their propaganda machine that makes this work. they blocked everything Obama wanted except Obamacare which he had 60 votes for. And no he didn't have 60 votes for 2 years just 35 days in session. The GOP has the reconciliation rule so they only need 51 votes for cutting stuff and taxes on the rich while the Democrats need 60 votes for reform. What a scam.

 

You can learn from the Mahatma .. for he is very wise

Poly Sci 100 ? Google - the basics of Philosophy are not hard - You should be well experienced in logical fallacy debating here. Go on a site that lists and describe these fallacies and you will know what you need to know.

One would think - through 12 years - a couple of hours in the classroom might be afforded to discussion of such fallacies - No ?

We are a Constitutional Republic. How many people know what this means with respect to individual liberty / legitimacy of authority/ Law ?

Do you know ? Either way - could we not afford a few hours - through 12 years - on this topic ?