Right to repair.

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Polydectes, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    There doesn't seem to be much point in it than.
     
  2. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    The reason it's there is to make money. What's the farmer going to do throw out a 150k machine?
     
  3. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    How's that fraud I tell you how much it's going to cost after diagnostics. Should mechanics be paid hourly? Or should it be based on the job?
     
  4. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you for the most part. I was just pointing out a little perspective from the manufacturer/dealer side of the equation. If they are liable to the EPA for mistakes or changes made to software or hardware by a third party mechanic, that’s a problem they have to protect themselves from. My position is that the liability to the EPA needs to go away, then pressure can be applied to manufacturers to open source everything. But it’s simply not going to happen until the EPA is dealt with.

    While money directly from service is part of the equation, it’s not the whole equation.
     
  5. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Banned

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  6. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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  7. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    I'm not against the manufacturer holding proprietary control over there software. It should just not be used to hold the equipment hostage.
     
  8. bx4

    bx4 Well-Known Member

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    But it is free market. People are not obliged to buy Apple products. As you point out, if they don’t want to be restricted in terms of repairs / service / options, they are free to buy a different product.
    Similar with cars. If you don’t want to be locked in to high service costs, buy one that’s cheaper to service.
     
  9. Thehumankind

    Thehumankind Well-Known Member

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    We have always the right to repair, it's ours after purchase, but doing it is also on our expense if something goes wrong.
     
  10. bx4

    bx4 Well-Known Member

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    The free market has a principle of caveat emptor. Buyer beware.

    In the free market it is up to the buyer to research and ask questions before he buys a tractor. The vendor is not obliged to disclose information that might make the product less appealing.

    To be honest I can see both sides of this. The thing I take issue with is you saying that free market principles demand that vendors either allow access to repair the product or that they are required to disclose certain things before a sale. Actually the free market is giving the current result.
     
  11. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As long as free market principles, objectivity, and the rights of the individual are the standards, legislate away. But as the manufacturer of the product, I control all rights except those I sell to a buyer.

    Same as an artist he creates a song. The controls all rights except those he sells to the recording companies. They in turn own all rights they purchased from the artist and can sell copies of the recording to consumers.

    The essential issue you here is: Unless you can objectively prove the seller commuted fraud in a court of law, your going to get the government’s gun to force a seller to give you want you want is immoral, destructive to the creative mind, and in the end will only kill the “goose laying the golden eggs”, free trade, ie., capitalism.
     
  12. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You pay for what you get, and you get what you deserve. There’s a reason why Walmart has succeeded whereas Sears went belly up.
     
  13. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    if you can't get service anywhere you want on your property then that's not a free market. It's a restricted market.

    if you can't get your repairs done on the open market that is a restricted market it doesn't matter what the product is.

    A restricted market is the opposite of a free market.
     
  14. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    why is repair service excluded from your free market principle?

    You can't have a free market if you restrict the market. And if you can't go anywhere for repairs that is a restricted market.
    it's funny how you are all for a free market when you're selling a product but then one you're talking about service do you switch to a restricted Monopoly market.

    This duality is hard to follow.



    so the vendor is allowed to commit fraud?


    the current result is a restricted market. So a free market is giving us a restricted market?

    I'm sorry that's cognitive dissonance I can't understand that because it makes no sense.
     
  15. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In 2018 I bought a 2016 Honda Civic. When I went looking on Helms for a factory service manual like I have with all my Hondas. I discovered I could buy a monthly subscription for it on line. Do you know anything about this?
     
  16. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    If you repair something you aren't spending any money you're spending time and labor. If they purposefully install booby traps that prevent you from performing repairs you do not have the right to repair.
     
  17. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Honestly no, I don't. I'm sorry. Outside of really rare or obscure things I don't find myself needing manuals.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  18. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What OBD-II scanner would you recommend for doing my own work. I have been repairing our families and my own cars since I was 12 when my Dad, an aircraft Mechanic in the Army Air Corp, got Rheumatoid Arthritis and drafted me to fix our cars with him hanging over my shoulder. Turned out to be a valuable skill.
     
  19. bx4

    bx4 Well-Known Member

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    A free market is one that does not have any interference from government.

    People are free to buy whatever product they want. That freedom might, down the road, result in restrictions on their service choices. But that is a freedom that people enjoy at the outset.

    A lot of people don’t like the control that Apple exerts on their products. Fine. They are free to buy different products. But a lot of people will accept that control in order to obtain the advantages that they see (for them) in Apple products.

    You don’t realize it, but you seem to be advocating for a regulated market, not a free market. If I understand your position correctly, you want government to force vendors to open up their software to allow anyone to repair the item. And/or you want vendors to be forced to explain, before purchase, what the service costs would be.

    I’m not taking a position on that. As I say, I can see your point of view. But as soon as government steps in to do something, the market becomes a bit more regulated - a bit less free from government interference.
     
  20. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    And a bit more expensive to the consumer.
     
  21. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00652G4TS/?coliid=IJYWPG6Z8ALOO&colid=1JH0331CUIJLS&psc=1
     
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  22. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Funny, I thought a free market was a free market.
    free market includes repair and service markers
    again I don't understand why you're ignoring the repair and service market.
    no I'm arguing for a free market for repairs and services.
    you don't understand it.

    I'm arguing that manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to put ransomware on their products to extort more money from their customers for fictitious repairs.
    again I am arguing for a free market when it comes to repairs and service do you not understand repairs and service is a market?
     
  23. bx4

    bx4 Well-Known Member

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    You are arguing AGAINST a free market. A free market means no government interference.

    In a free market, vendors are free to design their products in any way they want. Including in ways that mean that only they can service those products.

    As a consumer you are free to buy such a product. You are also free to look for a product that can be serviced anywhere.

    As soon as the government steps in to force the manufacturers to do something (like open up their software so others can service their products), the market becomes regulated, not free.

    What you want is an open market - opened through regulation - not a free market.
     
  24. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed. Apple and other companies also do it. Products have become so complex that specialist equipment is needed to do good repairs and the equipment don't come cheap.
    Garage mechanics have been using expensive diagnostic systems for decades now to repair cars, so some freelance guy with a monkey wrench is likely obsolete in the world of automotive repair these days.
     
  25. onetruename

    onetruename Well-Known Member

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    There is a free market. Do what you want, however you want to tell a company how to design their product. Communism. if you don't like it, dont buy it.
     

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