Would you support splitting the U.S. into two nations?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by K9Buck, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Preferably more than just two. The smaller the nations, the better.

    USA is not even a real country anyways.
     
  2. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Explain please.
     
  3. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    That's what I thought as well. Alabama is 26% Black at over 1.2 million people, and Louisiana is 32% Black with almost 1.5 million. Why would @Derideo_Te pick two states that have such large Black populations to kick out? Why not New Hampshire which is mostly white?

    Interesting...
     
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  4. BuckyBadger

    BuckyBadger Well-Known Member

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    I would not. If the Democrats get control they will steer us to a Soviet style/Nazi Party rule. That has always been their aim. It will destroy the country.

    Americans should work hard to keep power away from them (Democrats like Schiff, Nadler, Pelosi, Schumer) and keep it with Constitutionals and with those that respect the country and it's borders.

    When Trump wins in 2020, it will really help keep things even and in the middle. If he secures a majority in the House and in the Senate, we will have a very prosperous and economically sound Presidential term. Hopefully with a soaring economy, he can work hard on getting the deficit down.

    If the Democrats get in control of the House and Senate, they will impeach again and try to remove him. If they are successful, they just drive the country into the dirt at the expense of hard working families and the Middle Class.
     
  5. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    If CALIFORNIA was a country it would have the FIFTH highest GDP in the WORLD.Now Mississippi,Louisiana,Alabama,W.Virginia,New Mexico,Kentucky these are some of the sates with the highest poverty rates. Since the GOP is seriously underrepresented by people of color and FEMALES in the congress and the senate, Democrats should welcome both of these groups, shunned by the right wing, after all FEMALES are the largest percentage of the nations workforce and potentially largest voting bloc.
     
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  6. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know how the coming election will go. No doubt events will influence it a lot. Half of Americans can't be bothered to vote, normally, but perhaps events will galvanize them to come and vote for ... ?

    But whatever happens in November, the Left is on course to win complete control in the US in the years ahead. Third World immigration, and the new generations coming out of the university PC mills will guarantee that. Don't kid yourself about this. And once they win even temporary control, they will leverage that to make it permanent. All though democratic means, by the way. Of course conservatives who reveal their beliefs will continue to be fired from big corporations and purged from the universities, but that's completely incidental to the coming control of the control by the Left. They do that because it's what they believe in -- the extirpation of evil --- not because it helps them gain control.

    If you think I exaggerate, I invite you to read this very important article in The Atlantic, published last month:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/how-america-ends/600757/

    So conservatives basically have a choice: stay in a united United States, and watch the triumph of the Left. (And it will get more "Left", year by year. Hey, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.) Or we can begin to plan for our escape.

    However, if you think I'm wrong, please read that article in The Atlantic, the link to which is given above, and tell me where he is wrong.
     
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  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I read the article when it originally came out, and if memory serves, it saw something that we're already seeing; the breakdown of federal law at the regional level. First there were illegal sanctuary cities, then 2nd Amendment sanctuaries...eventually federal law will become meaningless as we'll have a sanctuary city for every issue.
     
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  8. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    And the DNC is underrepresented with people of intelligence and common sense and overpopulated by stupid idiots who think white straight guys cause all the problems.
     
  9. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Do not have any idea what Antifa MEANS?

    It stands for ANTI FAscist!

    if there were NO FASCISTS on your side there would be NO Antifa on the other side!

    Antifa ONLY EXISTS because your side REFUSES to CONDEMN the Fascists in your own ranks!

    No, that is where YOU are mistaken!

    You are IMPOSING what Antifa does onto EVERYONE on the Left!

    That is what the BROAD BRUSH FALLACY is all about!

    Antifa DOES NOT speak for the Left!


    Why do your IMAGINE that you are going to NEED GUNS to protect yourself from a tiny group of zealots who have ZERO political power?

    All you need to do to end what you IMAGINE is a threat is to get rid of your own white supremacist FASCIST thugs!

    Once they are gone Antifa with disappear because there will no longer be any reason for it to exist!

    Why are you NOT taking that EASY option to solve your own problem?

    Is it because your ONLY answer to EVERY problem is a GUN?
     
  10. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lol...Look at all the so-called patriots calling for the destruction of the United States. Putin would be proud.
     
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  11. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Antifa is a creation of the alt. right, they are funded by the Kochs and others of the Billionaire's Cabal. The vast majority of their actual members have no idea who they are working for or what their real purpose, to make the left look bad, actually is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  12. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    He is. This movement is part of Putin's plan to take over America, of which Trump is a willing co-conspirator.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  13. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    America is way too big and the cultural and political differences between the different regions are way too great to maintain an organic and natural unity between the people.

    Furthermore, the smaller the State, the smaller the government, the freer the people. An order with many small and independent regions will create an institutional competition that benefits everyone.
     
  14. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know how the coming election will go. No doubt events will influence it a lot. Half of Americans can't be bothered to vote, normally, but perhaps events will galvanize them to come and vote for ... ?

    But whatever happens in November, the Left is on course to win complete control in the US. Don't kid yourself about this. And once they win even temporary control, they will leverage that to make it permanent. All though democratic means, by the way.

    Of course conservatives who reveal their beliefs will continue to be fired from big corporations and purged from the universities, but that's completely incidental to the coming control of the control by the Left.

    They do that to us because it's what they believe in -- the extirpation of evil --- not because it helps them gain control.

    As a side-note:, in answer to @Aleksander Ulyanov ... it's depressing to see how 'conspiracy theorizing' is affecting otherwise-intelligent people. (Unless that was a joke.)

    On my side of the barricades, AntiFa is believed by many to be financed by George Soros, not by Mr Koch. Of course, both claims are nonsense.

    (These two are working together, however, in financing a think tank which will oppose the foreign policy -- supported by both Republicans and Democrats -- which has led to America's involvement in endless insane wars overseas. Good for them. They're both billionaire evil kapitalists, and had their staff members study this problem: after an all-nuclear war, would the stock market go up or down? The conclusion was: it would go up ... in clouds of radioactive vaporized particles. That would be bad for business, so they decided to try to prevent this from happening.)
     
  15. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The "the Russians are behind it" argument is more serious than the Koch-is-behind-it argument, and true in its essence. It would be unarguably true if it simply asserted that the Russians would be delighted to see the US break up.

    To what extent they have in the past, or are now, or will in the future, try to promote this cause, is, in the nature of these things, difficult to determine. The Russians are certainly VERY active on the internet, with fake accounts and bots promoting things they believe would benefit Russia.

    The Russians are a hundred times more effective than the Americans at this sort of low-level warfare: they have literally millions of people who speak English, and many people who have studied the US in great detail. Americans have almost nothing in the way of symmetric assets. The US has interfered grossly in Russian internal affairs, but mainly by giving lots of money to the people there it favors.

    Another factor is that Russia, as a legacy of its Communist past, has inherited the concept of building popular movements, i.e. trying to affect public opinion directly, building mass movements in countries it wants to influence. It was once a revolutionary power and this is how you make revolutions. The US, by contrast, tends to work by influencing leaders -- helping to put in rightwing dictators, for example, or invading a country and overthrowing dictators it doesn't like, rather than building popular movements that support the things it would like to see happen. It's just not in the American DNA to behave like a revolutionary power.

    The internet has given the Russians an enormous opportunity to do what they're good at, very cheaply. (It's also true that Russia has plenty of technically-savvy people.)

    There is no doubt that some foolish people, both Left and Right, have fallen for Russian trolling on this issue.

    Everyone should read this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41853131

    Now it would be nice to say: "Wonderful! We don't have to try to think about political issues any more. Just find out what the Russians are supporting, and oppose it; and what they are opposing, and support it."

    But that sort of thinking is simple-minded in the extreme. It's the mentality of someone who has been raised on Hollywood thrillers, of the Good vs Evil sort, in which our opponents are pure Evil, motivated only by the desire to cause maximum suffering -- some Dr Evil living in a secret headquarters under a volcano on an island. It's easier to 'think' like this, because it takes no effort.

    If that isn't clear, then consider this: suppose within one -- or both -- parties, candidates arise who favor a large increase in taxation to fund a huge expansion of the American military -- growing it from a million and a half to ten million; plus a return of conscription; plus an aggressive foreign policy, including the use of tactical nuclear weapons on recalcitrant states like Syria. Plus re-garrisoning Taiwan with a million American soldiers and nuclear missiles. (I think this is Mr Bolton's dream wish.)

    Now ... this might be a good idea, or it might not. (I think not.) But there is no douibt the Russians would oppose it, and get all their fake Facebook accounts into action arguing against it.

    So what?
     
  16. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe this is true. If I had my druthers, I'd rather see the world divided into nation-states of about five million each, with as close to free trade among them as possible.

    But ... it's not divided that way. We have big militarily-powerful states, and we cannot assume they will always be benevolent. Let's not kid ourselves about this. The free nations of the world need to co operate closely in a defensive military alliance. A future Red and Blue America would as well.

    This does NOT mean that this alliance, or either America, or America now, needs to be "going abroad in search of monsters to destroy". A strictly defensive alliance, not seeking to promote 'regime change' through military action, is the way to go. And it's less likely to provoke aggression, or actions that are seen as aggression, in others, as well. (Americans tend to believe that their government's foreign policy has always been kind and benevolent, and that people like Putin are anti-American solely out of pure evil. But this is not the case. Putin has a well-founded fear of interference by the US in his own country.)

    So let's divide ourselves into two relatively politically homogeneous nations, but seek to maintain very close co operation of a defensive nature. I believe there is a growing consensus among the base of both Democratic and Republican parties for a return to the foreign policy that guided the US for a century and a half, and served us well then.
     
  17. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    No, they are shrinking. They try to make it appear otherwise.
     
  18. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It would make my day ... my week ... my month ... my year ... if I could believe this.
    Can you provide some evidence?
     
  19. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    A cogent analysis, thank you

    One thing I feel should be pointed out is that throughout most of the 19th century America WAS the world's premier subversive country, and the only reason we're' not anymore is that we actually overthrew most of the autocracies we were against, (we turned them into Constitutional monarchies mostly). American DNA doesn't tolerate our being political CONQUERORS and coercive Empire Builders, which is why we've always been piss-poor Imperialists in the political sense; we send Ronald MacDonald instead of the 101st Airborne (he can be a lot more effective too)

    To put it another way at least since the Bolsheviks we've been the subverted. If you want to be a Revolutionary power it really helps to have a Revolution
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  20. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    America died the day trump was elected. America is already dead.

    They key is that they would support scum like trump. No true American would ever support such a despicable thug. Trumpers have destroyed belief and faith in the country. American is no longer a force for good. Trumpers want a dictator whether they know it or not. There is no going back now.

    Two very smart, highly educated and hard-working friends of mine are leaving the country soon. They are just the tip of the iceberg of the brain drain occurring right now. Smart people can see where this is going and want out. If I could leave I would too. This is not America; this is some kind of Orwellian nightmare.

    America is dead dead dead. If I even had a flag anymore I'd wipe my ass with it and put it in a ballot box for trump.

    And I'm not a liberal. So anyone spewing their rw crackpottery and bs can shove it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  21. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    He isn't wrong, you are.

    Re-read the article, and maybe re-read it again. Think about it a little more, it's subtle
     
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  22. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's already split into two "nations". A nation is a group of people. A country is a geographic area. A State is a political entity representing a group of people within a geographic area. We are the United States of America. Our constitution is a treaty between sovereign States. In it, the limits on a federal government's authorities and responsibilities are enumerated.

    Do you suggest they we divide our country? It would be done most easily along state lines; however, that would leave huge swaths of the country, in places like New York and California, divided within themselves.
     
  23. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, the article doesn't spell out all the demographic evidence that shows that the conservative bloc in America is doomed to permanent minority status. He refers to it, but takes it for granted that his readership is familiar with it. I need to take the material he refers to, and summarize it, because not everyone
    has read it. Conservatives in particular avert their eyes from it.

    The author of that article is hopeful. He thinks the Republicans should move left, capture the center ground, and hope that they can win the support of the people who now vote for the Left so that they feel that they can win elections from time to time. In other words, that we can revert to Kennedy/Nixon America.

    In one sense, I agree with him. I do want to see the Republicans abandon their current economic libertarianism. This idea has been outlined in FH Buckley's The Republican Workers Party. That would allow it to appeal to the sort of Democrats who voted for Trump, who sort-of kind-of hinted that he was sympathetic to the people who've seen their jobs shipped off overseas. I'm not terribly optimistic about it happening, however. I think after Trump, the Donor Class will re-assert control of the Republican Party, and it will be back to devil-take-the-hindmost. Are you a 54-year-old steelworker who's lost his job? Tough luck! Go clean toilets at Walmart, or become a PHP progammer. The tops of the Republican Party are almost as contempuous of ordinary people as our snotty young Lefties are.

    However, the problem is not one that can be solved by the Republicans adopting a more worker-friendly program, as desirable as that might be.

    America is undergoing a profound change. The change that's going on is cultural, and it's irreversible. I don't believe we can come back from the shift that is happening, which undermines the very foundations of a shared nation. The patriots have to leave. If they don't, they'll go down with the others. Exactly how this will happen is not predictable.

    What sort of demons will be unleashed from a white minority which refuses to eat crow and admit that the main thing that characterized European history and the history of its colonies like the US, is 'racism and imperialism', who are in a country that they took for granted as Number 1 in the world, which has become Number 2 ... given the impact, say of big depression, mass Third World Immigration, and, perhaps a military humiliation by China ... is hard to say.

    All the charges of 'racism' and 'fascism' being hurled at the majority of white males now by leftist airheads, could actually become reality. Fortunately, the white supremacist Right has not found a really intelligent leader yet. But he's probably out there.
     
  24. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    No thanks..
     
  25. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This thread is now so long that it's not reasonable to expect new-comers to go back and read all the previous posts. But we have argued this one out in earlier posts.

    Basically, you are right. (Except for the 'sovereign states' part. Some people might wish that this were true, but that issue was settled in the little dispute we had 150 years ago.)

    We are very interpenetrated, unfortunately. Like Serbs and Croats in Yugoslavia, rather than ethnic Norwegians and Swedes in the old Kingdom of Sweden. The latter could separate peacefully, because national allegiance matched geographical location. The former couldn't, because it didn't. So in the latter case, hundreds of thousand of people had to flee their homes, on both sides. It was terrible.

    As for the right 'unit of separation', the geographic areas of each unit should be as small as possible, so that a minimum of people are trapped in the 'wrong' area. In other words, we need to do 'gerrymandering', which in this case will be in a good cause. (You can easily find county-level 'red vs blue' maps -- I would like to find a Congressional District level map.)

    I suggest using Congressional Districts as the starting point. But a viable nation should, ideally, be mostly contiguous. The US does well with Alaska and Hawai'i, so this isn't an absolute. And there are geographic-economic considerations: it's very useful to have an outlet on the sea.

    Americans are a mobile people. And if this idea every really gained traction, with some sort of rough map of where the boundaries would be, we might expect a lot of population transfers: rightists moving to the proposed 'red America', leftists going the other way. If this were done over a long period of time ... say ten or twenty years ... the negative personal impact would be minimized. It's when you have to do it in a matter of weeks, with unsmiling armed men standing on the street in front of your house, that it becomes unpleasant. (If the Greeks and Turks on Cyprus could have foreseen what the triumphant militant Greek nationalism of the Enosis movement was going to provoke on the part of the Turkish military, they could each have moved to different ends of the island in time, and avoided losing their property when they had to flee at gunpoint.

    So maybe, if this idea builds up slowly, we can avoid the usual fate of nations that come apart.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020

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