Why would anyone vote for a Democrat?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Kat236, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. fiddlerdave

    fiddlerdave Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The major way the so-called "socialist HC" is to not be billions of dollars spent by health insurance companies who NOTHING except to deny service any way possible, while paying those HC companies pays hundreds of millions of dollars to the CEOs and other executives and owners!

    LOL. The quality of life and life expectancy determinants are all over around USA insurance, although their main method is just to make sure that 20 or 30% of Americans can't afford health care like that! In the rest of the 1st World, if a person is denied a hip without damn good reason, the politicians would be tossed out.
    O get
    Drs might be less in America because a Doctor doesn't need to come up with $500,000 and the Drs then charge millions each year for the rest of their lives. And wealthy families can't buy their way in - the "socialist" HC have to deal with much more of a true meritocracy, unlike the first order of business for a potential student in America is to have boatloads of money, and then the rich spoiled kids get in regardless to ability, good students who are not so rich are ending up left out.

    Odd. Our healthcare system has been screwed up by the Republicans who come up with systems that make utterly uncompetitive systems like Medicare Part D, whose architecture (Republican politicians who then retire a multimillion dollar paychecks from the healthcare companies! Yippee!

    Health insurance premiums have been rising since the 1990s the same amounts, alot of people kept the higher premiums by eliminating more and more coverages.

    Look at some of the coverages - before the ACA McDonald's gave a coverage for workers by charging nearly $100 per month. But their MAXIMUM payout for EVERYTHING was $4,000. PER YEAR!

    These kinds of things were a joke, but oh boy, people were "covered" - as long as they never got sick or hurt!

    The new Trump insurances are the same - a waste of money! But that is Republican health care! Are you rich? You got care! Otherwise you are sick!
     
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  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Our healthcare system is an extortion racket - to pad the pockets of the Healthcare and Insurance Oligopolies.

    The 2017 total Healthcare spend was 3.5 Trillion dollars - almost as much as the entire Federal Revenue for the year - with no universal healthcare UHC.

    Every other first world nation provides UHC - and they do it for roughly half the cost. We are middle of the road in terms of quality of care - (those that actually get care).

    If we were just to adopt one of the better systems - straight across the board - there is 1.7 Trillion dollars in savings to be had - more if you factor in economies of scale - and we should be able to do better by learning from the experience of these other systems.

    and that - is that.
     
  3. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    During that time not only was the computer industry, sans the frauds, was exploding. Clinton turned the deficit into a surplus and we were on track to pay off the debt. Then Bush came to office and said deficits don’t matter and proceeded to blow the federal budget all to hell.
     
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  4. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    Clinton lucked out, he was in office during the start of the dot com boom. When the bubble burst Bush43 suffered the consequences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble Bush43 was no conservative and Clinton on track to pay off the debt is laughable.
     
  5. StarFox

    StarFox Banned

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    Extremely laughable indeed, you are dead on correct about that.
     
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  6. GeddonM3

    GeddonM3 Well-Known Member

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    I would if the actual liberals who believed in freedom and put their countrymen first made a comeback, but as it stands today I could never vote for the forced economic slavery these progressives are trying to cram down our throats. Also I consider them very anti American since they hate free speech that isnt in line with their opinion, they want to disarm the law abiding citizens of this country in order to gain more power over them , and they put americans last behind illegal immigrants, refugees , whatever Europe needs money for, and they stand behind terrorist states like Palestine and Iran . Progressives in my opinion should be named the "Benedict Arnold Party" .
     
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  7. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    I agree with this statement; however, our remedies are polar opposites.

    I want freedom to choose and free markets to work - augmented with a true safety net for those that can't provide for themselves.

    You, on the other hand, want full-on government control. That's a non-starter for anyone who values liberty.

    Again with the specious arguments.

    Lifestyles, diversity demographics, diets, less care provided, smaller populations, on and on...

    There are a myriad of factors that affect bottom lines.

    My wife is Filipina. She eats rice and vegetables everyday. Almost never eats meat. She'll likely live to 125.

    Me on the other hand, I'm a barrel-chested Norwegian. I eat mostly meat, and very few vegetables. I was born with clogged arteries and HBP. Had a heart attack at 36. I have exactly no shot of reaching 80.
     
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  8. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wanting free markets to work is one thing - changing human nature is quite another. The Oligopolies have turned our HC system into the monster that it is. Liberty is not being forced to pay 10 times the price for a life saving drug - that is paid in other nations. That's called extortion.

    It's not that I want full on Gov't control - I am a libertarian/ old style republican - it is just that it is the lesser of 2 evils. Liberty is not being taxed and charged to death to pad the pockets of Oligopolies.https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-conservative-case-for-universal-healthcare/

    its not a specious argument .. 3.5 Trillion is what we paid in 2017 - and we have no better care .. this has been studied upside down and right side up. Further - larger population means economies of scale - so we should be able to do even better.
     
  9. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    Surpluses pay off the debt. Clinton had Surpluses. Trump promised to pay off the debt, yet we have been having trillion dollar deficits. As a financial manager, Bill Clinton was a more than a trillion times better than the bumbling boob, Trump.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  10. SkullKrusher

    SkullKrusher Banned

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    Well you could make a mistake on one of those butterfly ballets they used in Florida during Bush v Gote
     
  11. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    Tell the Democratic house to submit a budget that doesn't create so much debt. Under Clinton, the GOP controlled both houses for the 1st time in 40 years. Now I see why Clinton was able to brag about a balanced budget.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  12. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    It is weird, at the time, it was thought that Clinton had outsmarted the GOP. Let a few decades pass and now conservatives get to pretend the GOP had the upper hand.


    You know it sounds really disgusting Trump and the GOP. How do you know there has been a Trump rally? All the red gop all over the floor.
     
  13. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    I just did some quick sums - mind you, without adjusting for inflation, or whatever other effects might influence the numbers...

    Since 2008, when that walking disaster Barack Obama got in, and graced us with Obamacare - US spending on healthcare rose from $2.4 Trillion to $3.24 Trillion in 2019. That's an increase of 35%.

    In real $$, it went from $7,681 per person to approx. $9,680 per person.

    That is largely thanks to Obamacare. I know much more is coming out of my pocket.

    -------------------------

    The solution is not more government control. The solution is freedom - freedom FROM government.

    Freedom is what America is supposed to be about. It is what gave us the greatest country and economy the world has ever seen.

    Sadly Americans understand nothing about history, economics, or freedom.

    You will eventually get your way, and the government will begin to use its unlimited power to attack dissenters and destroy freedom once and for all.

    Brick by brick... you guys are building us right into a gulag.
     
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  14. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    They've been taught to want that.

    So, they want it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  15. Kat236

    Kat236 Well-Known Member

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    I’m not blaming anyone for any misfortune, once again you don’t have enough information to make any decision on me or my business. My business does very well, I do very well financially, and my employees do very well. I was simply pointing out obstacles that make it rough for most business owners. I had one problem with one employee and you suddenly believe I’m a terrible employer.
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who is "you guys" - and you are way off base.. and your numbers are off - spending was 3.5 Trillion in 2017.

    https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statis...onalHealthExpendData/Downloads/highlights.pdf

    Obamacare was lipstick on a pig - I have stated this numerous times - Obama did nothing to deal with the systemic issues that plague our healthcare system - and neither did the admin's before him ... and neither has Trump.

    The status quo is to pad the pockets of the healthcare and insurance Oligopolies - on your dime .. to the tune of 1.7 Trillion dollars a year.

    SS is now in - or close to negative - after decades of generating interest income - above what the program cost .. this is due to the Gov't stealing that interest .. rather than letting it accumulate in the fund.

    You are clearly not a fiscal conservative - what is your color .. religious right something or another ?

    What part of 1.7 Trillion dollars on the table .. is not sinking in ?
     
  17. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    I just grabbed some numbers from a quick Google search. Not going to bother arguing minutiae in the pile of rubble that is the HC racket.

    If anything your numbers make the case that Obamacare was even worse than I showed it to be.

    Isn't it true that all of the lefties prattled on endlessly about "savings", and "affordability", and yada yada, when they they were shoving Obamacare down our throats??

    And now we're getting the same song and dance?? I've been in these fights for decades, I know full well how the game is played.

    "Absent justice, what are kingdoms but vast robberies"?

    The left loosed the government from the chains of the Constitution decades ago, and now you want to help them continue to build an inescapable web of control over us??

    SS and Medicare are both in the red now... we've known that was going to be the case for decades.

    I've got news for you - it's deliberate.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety; deserve neither Safety nor Liberty."

    - Benjamin Franklin

    Your liberty is pretty cheap I guess.

    I'm obviously much more of a fiscal conservative and defender of liberty than you are, lol...

    You want to hand over yet more power to the FedGov. Life and death power. Unconstitutional power... yikes dude - think about what you're advocating??

    And by-the-by, I'm a libertarian. A Constitutionalist Libertarian at that.
     
  18. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Some of the things you listed below are just that.

    Appeals to hispanics who are a large part of their base.

    Many detailed plans out there actually. Will benefit workers who can now afford education and retrain instead of being stuck in poverty.

    The democrats are the only major party that even admits the threat of climate change and will do anything to address it.

    There are many proposals actually. This benefits workers by cutting their healthcare bill and guaranteeing affordable healthcare for everyone.
     
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are the one giving up liberty - and the sad thing is that you don't even realize it.

    What part of 3.5 Trillion -do you not understand ? Gov't Bad - got it - know it and so on but the fact of the matter is even with these bloated inefficient massive bureaucracies in other first world nations .. they manage to give UHC for half of what we are paying.

    If you don't see something wrong with that ... I can not help you .. and you have few fiscal bones in your body.
     
  20. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    You want the government to control me and make decisions for me, and I'm the one giving up liberty??

    As if government control = liberty??

    Sorry, that's just absurd logic.
     
  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The first problem with your logic is the assumption that you are not already controlled. It means nothing what I want - The fact of the matter - is that you are already controlled. There is no "I want to live in a different world" choice. This is the starting point.

    You then build a strawman - accusing me of something I do not believe so you have something to argue against. Logical fallacy 101.
    I believe Liberty is the absence of Gov't control - so stop putting falsehoods in my mouth.

    So at the starting gates - we are controlled to the tune of 3.5 Trillion (2017) .. per year. I say .. how about we reduce this number to 1.7 Trillion. You then say ... "YOU HATE LIBERTY" .. with no further qualification of any coherence.

    A) We already have the massive inefficient Gov't bureaucracy - what planet are you living on .. where we don't ?

    B) In addition we have the Healthcare and Insurance Oligopolies raping our behinds. Happy day...

    I say we save decrease the spend to 1.7 Trillion - regardless of what the ratio of A to B is in the equation.

    If you have a better solution - something at least mildly coherent .. I am all ears ?
     
  22. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    Given that we both agree the system as is, is a mess - we both want changes.

    You want more government.

    I want less government - a lot less.

    Your view is authoritarian in nature.

    My view is consistent with the principles of freedom.

    Take heart though, your side will win; and, as a libertarian/conservative, it is only a matter of time before the government cuts me out of the system for my unPC worldview.

    Just as a journalist was recently fired for daring to say something as crazy as 'there are only 2 genders' - anyone who runs afoul of government approved views will be subject to having their "right" to HC revoked.

    It is the nature of government.

    P.S. Remember, 2+2=5 if the government says it does ;)
     
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  23. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    How much money would be saved if we could purchase insurance across state lines?? If we actually had competition between insurance companies??

    How much money would be saved if we could enact some sensible tort reform??

    How much money could be saved if people weren't forced to purchase coverage they didn't want or need??

    I never had health insurance of any kind until I was 29. Got banged up?? I paid cash.

    There are many things that can be done to reduce costs that are consistent with common sense and in keeping with the principles of liberty.

    Saying that socialism is the solution to any economic question is ridiculous.
     
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  24. Kat236

    Kat236 Well-Known Member

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    Very intelligent post.
     
  25. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Why would anyone vote for a Democrat?

    They see a personal benefit for themselves.
     

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