Islamic origins

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by ARDY, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. UprightBiped

    UprightBiped Active Member

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    yes, and we're not likely to ever know if they ever were there, and if their loss came by natural or nefarious devices.

    I do think we can be certain that Mohammed never prayed to a ka'aba in KSA, as it appears it was not built until after his death. Mohammed is the example...is that preeminent? ....
    ...if so, then yes, KSA and Jordan will have tension. And could this reignite Sunni/Shia strife?

    What Gibson is describing are the events of The Battle of Camel in the Koran. I stopped by wiki to reread it after watching that last Gibson vid. Suddenly, I am viewing it through Gibson's lens. *sigh*
    No, they are not.

    Edit: ya know, I haven't even posted anything on the work being done on the ancient koranic manuscripts.

    Not have we added "The Reformer" to the discussion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  2. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    All of this has already been refuted
     
  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    FALSE! none has been refuted, and it goes without the need to say that the nonsequitur opinions you posted have no standing what so ever, and no ones imagination can stretch far enough to to label your nonsequitur opinions a refutation but you. They teach this to children in primer school you know.

    The FACT is that theists lack belief in the nonexistence of God, no matter how much pain it causes you to see neoatheology shredded.

    You cant show me one theist who does not lack belief in the nonexistence of G/god or gods. :winner:
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  4. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Demonstrably true. I’ve provided both definitions. Theism is an active belief. Atheism is the lack of belief. Your moronic word game is grammatically incorrect and doesn’t exist in the English language.

    you lose
     
  5. UprightBiped

    UprightBiped Active Member

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    Said I wasn't adding a word to y'all's ot discussion, apparently l lie...

    Touche'
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
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  6. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    I think the Bedouin tribes roaming the deserts of Arabia would keep the memory of ancient shrines, if there were any. They surely can tell some stories about past events. Did anyone try to ask them?

    I'd like information on ancient manuscripts.

    Who, or what, is "The Reformer"? Does it have anything to do with Ahmadiyya?
     
  7. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Of course I can. Not one, billions. Almost two billion Muslims believe in the nonexistence of Hindu gods, and more than two billion Christians believe in the nonexistence of the Chinese water god Gonggong.

    The above, however, is irrelevant for the false equivalence you're trying to concoct between theism and atheism. The term "belief" has more than one meaning. Conflating theists' religious beliefs with any other kind of belief is disingenuous and leads to wrong conclusions. Please define your terms properly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    that is possibly the most ridiculous and dumbest post I have seen out here in years!

    So using your logic they are appropriately theistic-atheists! Brilliant!
    .
    Seriously where do you people dig this level of absurdity up?

    How many G/gods does it take to make a theist? I know tough question.:roll:
    How many G/gods does it take to make an atheist? another really tough question.

    I know it takes a phd to sort out complicated problems like that but hell give it your best shot anyway.

    So atheist religious beliefs get special treatment, oh thats right neoatheists think their beliefs arent really beliefs at all.

    Understood, people may wrongfully think beliefs are just that, beliefs, and we cant have any of that nonsense can we! :roll:

    I love it when neoatheists are proven wrong, the more they are backed into a corner the more over the top loonacy we see in their posts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  9. Gelecski7238

    Gelecski7238 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One remote viewer was sent to describe what existed at a street address that was unremarkable at the time. The viewer described a particular store that was built there within a few years.

    Another remote viewer happened to encounter the fresh scene of a crashed airliner. The spirits of the victims were standing around asking what happened. He told them that their plane crashed, that they all died and had left their bodies.

    Ingo Swann, Pat Price and other capable RVers were employed in military projects funded by the government. But that's all balderdash to you.

    By definition, God is a divine incorporeal eternal spirit, i.e. nonmaterial. There is no physically tangible evidence to either prove or disprove God's existence. Thus your argument against the existence of God is hollow.

    There is some evidence in the form of universal tendency of the human mind, which might be called instinct or intuition, and this innate religious tendency is professionally recognized.

    H. sapiens sapiens is a cut above the rest of the animal kingdom. Many of the habitable planets out there within and beyond our galaxy have been in existence millions and billions of years longer than our story. There is bound to exist a further hierarchy of the being level. Transcendence beyond our level of animation is inevitable.
     
  10. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Unsupportable nonsense.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You agree that there is no possibility of evidence, yet you pose your RV stories!

    People report their dreams as being real on a regular basis. And, depending on how charasmatic they are, they get rewarded for it.

    I really don't know why anyone sees that as surprising - or convincing.
     
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  12. Gelecski7238

    Gelecski7238 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You and all the skeptical deniers of remote viewing are dead wrong. It's awesome but limited.





    (18:20 – 31:20)
     
  13. UprightBiped

    UprightBiped Active Member

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    I am a frustrated poster.

    I started back in the seventies to learn about the Quran and the Mideast. Like most people, it never occurred to me to question the historical accuracy. I bumped into this information a couple of years ago. I have never posted it until now. One reason why I have not is because I can't find link-able sources! The research is being done, there are books out there. But these academicians are not out there on YouTube, they are not out doing interviews on Jimmy Kimmel, THC, BBC, or Scientific American! Dr Crone's work is now being posted on sites like academia.edu, etc. But hey, guess what, she's worm food! She's no longer in danger of losing her head! But apparently they found their voice, someone willing to take the risk to get the information out. They know him, he matriculated under several of them, with others he's developed working relationships. A perfect spokesman? At first I thought not, now I'm not so sure ... he is on a mission, albeit a two-pronged one: to get their research known, and his own work as a Christian polemicist (not apologetic, his say). So it's back to Dr Smith we go for part 2 of his presentation.



    I said all that just to say I can't give you much on the guys behind this research.
    The two main players would be the two Muslim scholars who lead the research. I'll see what I can find on them, though Smith posts quotes from the paper they wrote.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  14. UprightBiped

    UprightBiped Active Member

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    From Wiki we get:
    So what do we know so far?

    1. ibn al-Zubayr, gov of Petra, rebelled in 683.

    2. abn al- Malik became caliph in 685.

    3. Zubayr took the rock and moved to Hijaz, built a new ka'aba for the rock betwn 683 and his death in 692. Until then qiblas faced Petra.

    In 691/2 al-Malik built the world's biggest billboard. We are told the dome commemorates the night journey to the 7 heavens...but it's built on the Jews holiest site, and here are the inscriptions inside:

    O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not ‘Three’ - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.” (Qur’an 4:171)

    And say, "Praise to Allah, who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification."(17:111)

    In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful. Say, “He is God, the One. God the Absolute. He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none comparable to Him.”
    (surah112)

    These are the earliest datable Quranic inscriptions.

    In 691 he changes the Caliphal Protocols.

    In 692 he changes Ummayyad coins away from caliph images to a coin which introduces us to the word Muslim, and the shahada.

    Also:
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25769690?seq=1

    The sira came in 833.
    The ahadith came in 870.
    The tafsir came in 923.

    In conclusion, however this played out, abn al-Malik was a key player.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  15. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    posting youtube videos of people saying the same unsupportable nonsense you are doesn't make it any less unsupportable nonsense.
     
  16. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    The OP says 'BYU', a cult isn't where I get my info from.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It certainly is but that is beside the point. I see you been reduced to ad hom fallacy ?
     
  18. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I haven't been able to find much on this matter on the internet myself. However while I was searching I came across an article about a Muslim professor of Islamic theology who claims Muhammad never existed:
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122669909279629451

    Now I've seen it all.
     
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  19. Gelecski7238

    Gelecski7238 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They aren't just ordinary people with no professional clout. Your limp response shows that you are willing to compromise your own integrity and resort to flim-flam just to maintain the inertia of your conventional bent.
     
  20. UprightBiped

    UprightBiped Active Member

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    Picked up a snippet more of that article.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Kalisch?wprov=sfla1
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  21. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    this isn't hard. If you can provide observable, repeatable scientific evidence for your claims that's one thing. But you posted a series of youtube videos of people making the same unsupportable claims you are.
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I know that the cops have used people that can do remote viewing to solve crimes .. that has to count for something no !?
     
  23. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    There is no way anything resulting from "remote viewing" is in any way admissible in court.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Probably not -but - this does not change the fact that remote viewers have been used to successfully assist Police in solving crimes.
     
  25. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    unsupportable nonsense
     

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