Birth Control: Sharing the responsibility

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by kungfuliberal, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    First, I'm not your son. Don't call me that. I've been respectful to you in this thread and with this post of yours you've become very insulting for no other reason other than I am pointing something out to you that didn't toe your line.

    No matter what is done the whole thing is going to be unfair to one group or another. That is why abortion is, and has been, and always will be, a hot topic. There are no winners or losers in this debate. You see it as unfair to women (and it is), anti-abortionists see it as unfair to the babies (and it is), and then you have your independents who see the unfairness to everyone, women, men, babies, everyone. The whole thing is one big cluster ****.

    "folk like you"? I've already told you, I'm Pro-Choice. Meaning that I am for letting the woman decide whether or not she brings a pregnancy to term or not. I am not against abortion. So stop lumping me in with anti-abortionists just because I didn't toe your line.

    And men are already put on the same burner. Just in different ways.

    I know the reason that the law was proposed. It was a stupid reason because it completely discounts anything from reality.
     
  2. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Actually it's already entering markets in other countries. But in the US we have also push for such levels of safety, that it takes longer and requires more to get through our approval process. Don't mistake red tape for lack of effort.

    Statutory rape means that it is legally rape even with consent given, such as with a minor only a day away from their 18th bday and a 30 year old. Please do not downplay actual male victim rape with this kind of language. Rape is rape and happens without consent.

    As you noted, it is whoever has custody. The law is equal towards men and women. Conflating odds with rights is a fallacy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  3. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    This looks like you are addressing distinct point in the quoted post. But you haven't placed numbers in the quoted post so it's very confusing as to what you are trying to address. Please either divide the quote up and address the points one by one, or at least number them and use numbers to correspond in your points.
     
  4. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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  5. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    It's her body. Her problem
     
  6. mdrobster

    mdrobster Well-Known Member

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    That and both egg and sperm donors.
     
  7. gamewell45

    gamewell45 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you have any idea what it would cost in taxpayer dollars under your plan?? People complain about high taxes now, just think about how much higher they'd go up if we incarcerate people who have no assets to begin with and cannot pay.
     
  8. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    I had not heard that. Fingers crossed it works well and is approved soon.


    You've probably heard/read about these odd female teachers having sex with 13 year old students of theirs. I don't get it. But I hope you do not downplay the reality that these women have taken advantage of men too young to have proper judgement to give consent. This conduct is illegal for a reason. And if the 13 year old impregnates the 30 year old teacher, he is looking at being responsible for child support.
    You must understand that an issue having 95% results favoring one sex over the other is what is called a "gendered issue". Example: You can have a law requiring you apply, pay a fee and obtain a license to get pregnant and gestate a baby to birth and state that it applies to men and women. The way such a law would be applied and function is the problem.
     
  9. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    We already have that.
     
  10. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    1a: The proposed legislation is an attack on men regardless of whether or not they ever got someone pregnant who did not want to be. Now, were it so limited... might be a good idea actually.

    1b: Maquiscat says the blocker is becoming a thing. We can hope.

    2a: I’m not advocating anything (other than making ectogenis research more legal (experiments have to end after 2 weeks by law at this time) . I’m stating a current legal fact in the USA.

    2b: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer 13 year old male statutorily raped by a 16 year old female owes child support. And example:

    Can I stop paying child support if I am not the father?

    Florida law is mostly protective of children – not dads. There are many situations where someone who is not the father will be obligated to pay child support until the child is an adult. Being on the birth certificate is one instance. Another is as simple as telling everyone you are the dad. Paternity law is a complex subject and tends to force people into a long term child support bill. The most important thing is to examine the facts and act quickly.”

    https://www.myfloridalaw.com/child-support-law/paying-child-support-not-the-father/

    3a and b. These safe haven laws can easily be made fair which they currently are not. Males will almost never be the custodial parent of a brand new born but they still need the same option the female has, namely, timely state they are not ready to be parents either. Perhaps just register at the police station that he has just been informed of a potential legal obligation and declines obligations and rights forthwith.



    .
     
  11. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Me too. It's the best male option I've come across, and reversable, not only in that it will break down, but a solvent was designed with it that is also not harmful to the body.

    I have also come across a design for a switch that can be inserted in line of the vas defrens (sp?) to provide a more immediate choice, but have not found any follow up on that.

    Indeed not. In these cases, they are both actual rape, as well as statutory rape. My point was that the legal ability to give consent and the actual ability don't necessarily coincide. As noted a person on the day before legal adulthood, is certainly physically and mentally capable of giving consent, but legal cannot. I do have to note that most places do have an allowance for near age, but the largest gap I am aware of is 6 years. So basically we say that today the person cannot consent to sex with a 30 year old, but tomorrow they can. It's statutory rape, but not actual rape.

    And I agree that a rape victim should never have to be required to provide for the results of the crime against them it is akin to forcing a woman to carry to term the result of her rape.

    Problems with application of the law does not mean a problem with the law itself. If the law says it is illegal to steal period, but only men are charged and women are not, the issue is not the law. The law doesn't specify that women not be charged.

    And it needs to be noted that biology does not matter for law. Legally speaking, I have as much right to an abortion as a woman does. That doesn't mean I get to abort what is in her body. It means that if I have something to abort from my body then I have the legal right to do so.
     
  12. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    You do have a right to an abortion but due to biology, you don't need one, so the law is fine. With safe harbor law, the material issue it addresses, its intent, is to provide a choice to the parent of the new born should they realize they are not ready to be a parent. Custody is not material and its inclusion in the law is resulting in an outrageous gendered issue. Men are literally told, "you didn't want a baby? you shouldn't have had sex". I've read it in these threads. It can be easily made fair.
     
  13. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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  14. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    The safe harbor laws are post birth laws and as such, enforcing the rights of both parents does not cause a violation of either. Attempting to force an abortion or to bring to term violates the woman's right of bodily autonomy. Once that baby is our of her womb, bodily autonomy no longer applies. Now custody matters. If there is joint custody, if either parent give the child away under the safe harbor laws they are in violation of the other's rights, and the safe harbor laws do not cover that. Likewise, if either parent has sole custody, the safe harbor laws apply, man or woman. The laws are equal between men and women. Failure of individuals to apply the law unfairly is not reflective of the law itself.
     
  15. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Someone else provided a different case as well. It happens, and it shouldn't. Likewise, and especially since there are laws on such, a male rape victim of a female rapist, assuming she takes the baby to term, should have every right to claim the child and termination of parental rights for the woman. As with male rapist of female victims, such women need to loss all their rights and be forced to pay child support.
     
  16. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He had the choice before sticking his dick in.
     
  17. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    And an anti-abortionist would say: "And she had the choice before opening her legs."

    See that's the thing about this whole abortion debate. There's a valid counter for a lot of the arguments. Not all mind you, but a lot. Even if one side or the other doesn't want to acknowledge that fact. That is why there is such a divide on it. It's also why I'm pro-choice. I can't make this kind of choice for other people. I have no Right to. Therefore they should make the choice for themselves.
     
  18. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree.
     
  19. Trump Gurl

    Trump Gurl Banned

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    Abortion is murder. It is a violation of the childs most basic human right.
     
  20. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    EDIT:
    Miscegenation used to be illegal in some jurisdictions saying it equally outlawed it for white and black people.
    The same logic that overturned those laws applies to making a law you know will provide options to one demographic (women) that will be denied the other (men). Were you correct that there is nothing unjust about Safe Harbor laws, you'd be suggesting that virtually every man that is informed of an unplanned child birth is eager to start making child support payments, which is nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  21. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    This makes for good media but has nothing in common with the abortion bill....which is all about protecting an individual human life already created....
    This Democrat law would be a fitting if we had a law forcing women to become sterile...which we dont.
     
  22. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure where you are getting your logic from. What options are given to women by law, that are not given to men?

    I am also not sure by what logic you equate the Safe Harbor laws being just and equal between men and women with men happily wanting to make child support payments. There is either a disconnect happening, or you have some logic steps that you failed to detail in this thread.
     
  23. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Unless the people that want it are gay or the wrong religion then state funded adoption agencies should be allowed to also block that.

    So block abortion and then block adoption unless the child can be placed into the proper cult...
     
  24. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    It's their body. Own it
     
  25. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    You are stating that safe harbor laws apply to men and women equally so there is no problem here. There are De Jure and De Facto issues that can make a law unjust and illegal. I Defacto make a law stating White people shall get hiring preferences over black people, it is on its face an unconstitutional law. I make a law that job hiring preferences are to be given to people based upon how light their complexion is with no mention of race, it would still be unjust due to the outcome of the law which would be biased against black people (de jure) because by definition, their complexion tends to be darker. How it works out matters.
    Is the proportion of those surrendering their rights and obligations to be a parent 50-50 between men and women? If not, how bad is it? The answer is likely something like 99.999% of those doing so are women and .001 men. This is what is called a gendered issue and one of bigotry. (Wanna complicate it more? There are concepts such as "strict scrutiny" where it may appear to be issues with a law as I describe, but that there's a really, really important reason that justifies disparities).
     

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