Birth Control: Sharing the responsibility

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by kungfuliberal, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    1. Point taken.
    2. Ummm, that's the point.....if you're going to violate a woman's body autonomy by making it virtually impossible to opt for an abortion no matter the circumstances involving conception, then what's wrong with violating a man's body autonomy via mandatory vasectomy?

    Your last paragraph is mostly a moot point covered by what I previously put forth. But let's be clear.....when you eliminate any alternative to full 9 month birthing for women, but balk at limiting the time frame where a man can impregnate said woman, that is placing the onus solely on the woman. No way around that.
     
  2. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    How did child support suddenly become the topic when the OP article is NOT about that? Let's recap; If you are to eliminate the choice of abortion, then you are subsequently forcing unwanted pregnancies to term. However, if you limit the number of years a man can father children, then you limit the number of unwanted pregnancies.

    But if you're going to repeat your statement regardless, no this.....the majority number of folk on welfare are single parent women. So much for child support from wayward dads.
     
  3. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    you're parroting..that means you don't have a substantive answer.

    If the state says WE determine when you have a baby...then why not the same for men? Takes two to make a kid, ya know.
     
  4. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    (1) It isn't murder according to the law. (2) The fetus isn't a child.
     
  5. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Examples from my post that you think was condesending?

    First, contraceptives do not prevent VD. Second, there are no over the counter products for contraceptives for men. Not for lack of trying mind you. But its much harder for them to come up with a contraceptive for men than it is for women. About the only thing men have is condoms. And its amazing how many people don't know how to use those right.

    And no, I'm not equating promiscuity with prevention of unwanted pregnancies. Not sure where you got that from.

    I'm glad you recognize that. That is in stark contrast when you claimed "Alabama conservatives and right to lifers are hell bent on controlling when and how many children a woman must give birth to" Which is why I initially entered into this conversation.

    And for anti-abortionists its not about preventing unwanted pregnancies, its about preserving the life of a child. They don't care if its an unwanted pregnancy. They just want to prevent abortion. Its not even about control over a woman's body like is so often claimed. It's simply about preventing an abortion. So you are making a false equivalency.

    What initial statement? Your question had nothing to do with anything that I said. If you think it does perhaps you can point it out to me and why you think your question applies?

    And stop calling me kid. If you continue to be disrespectful then I will respond in kind. I have tried to be civil but you are making it difficult.

    I already answered your question. Not my fault if you don't like the answer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  6. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    It's her body.
    The only parental obligation is hers. The man doesn't need an opt out. He's never in.
     
  7. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    What does the state have to do with your philosophical beliefs concerning the woman's body?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  8. mdrobster

    mdrobster Well-Known Member

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    No just saying the man should have a say in what the woman does doesn't change anything.
     
  9. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    Thread Title.
    Birth Control: Sharing the responsibility

    State actions, the law and fairness have nothing to to with one's philosophical views concerning the woman's body.
    It's her body.
    Own it.
    Live it.
    Love it.
     
  10. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    He's in. Law says so. He has an legal obligation to the offspring, as does the woman.
     
    gorfias likes this.
  11. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    Emphasis added. Women are able to exercise this "right". We can easily and fairly have equality of outcome in this instance. We currently do not. If told to me that a woman I slept with has had a child, I may not, at this time, say, "sorry: I'm not ready to be a dad." Women can do that. Why? The reality is that women are a monied, voting majority and that even with a disproportionate number of men at the top, they are gynocentric. Virginia just passed the ERA Amendment. I hear it included a rider essentially saying when things are biased in women's favor, that's fine. When something women want is has a disproportionate number of men getting that thing (ie being on corporate boards) that is to be remedied by force. California passed a law, so far unchallenged last year, requiring bigotry against men in forming corporate boards. This law that is enforced bigotry is neither easy nor fair. MGTOW thinks being an MRA is stupid. That women are over grown children and are myopic and unable to make judgements that consider justice. Only the satisfaction of their desires matter. Being a monied majority, they will always simply enforce bigotry against men. I hope the MGTOW are wrong.
     
  12. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

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    The answer is so simple.
    Give any woman who wants them, free contraceptives. If the woman has a child it was obviously her decision so it must also be her decision to pay for all the costs of raising a child until he/she is 18.
    No more taxbreaks, free healthcare, or any other program that allows parents to put their hands in the taxpayers pocket.
    You want children?; great, you get to pay for them.
     
  13. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Women can't in and of itself. Again, do not conflate a result with a right. She only gets that option if the offspring is inside her. You get that same option if the offspring is inside you. But she nor you gets that option if the offspring is inside another, such as a surrogate or, given the developing technology, in a couple of decades, an artificial womb. The law is equal. Equality of outcome means little, since outcome depends upon the decision, not the ability to make the decision.
     
  14. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    That would be incorrect. Inequality of outcome, at least in the US, can be Unconstitutional. And I think you are speaking of abortion only, leaving out inequality of outcome when it comes to surrendering parental rights and obligations. The outcomes are men typically unable to do so, women easily able to do so. If equality of outcome is, particularly in terms of the 14th Amendment, desirable, than fixing this issue would be easy and fair to do. Right? EDIT: Question: would you be against men being as likely to surrender such rights and obligations when they want to do so as often as women do when they want to do so?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  15. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    Oh, you're arguing law, the philosophically void argument. I get it
     
  16. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    1. We just did a turn on that right here. I'm not going to detract further from the real discussion at hand as this isn't about you personally.
     
  17. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    1. We just did a turn on that right here. I'm not going to detract further from the real discussion at hand as this isn't about you personally.

    2. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contraception


    According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the male latex condom is the best method for protecting against STDs, including HIV/AIDS. Polyurethane condoms are an effective alternative if either partner has a latex allergy.


    How can men reduce the risk of getting a sexually transmitted ...


    Today, the only contraceptive methods available to men are: condoms – a barrier form of contraception that stops sperm reaching and fertilising an egg. vasectomy – a minor surgical procedure that stops sperm being ejaculated from the penis during sex (it is usually permanent)


    The pill for men - Contraception | NHS inform

    3. I got it from your previous answer, which does not leave much to conclude otherwise.

    4. anti-abortionist like to pretend that unwanted pregnancy taken to full term that results in a child are two separate things...so they claim equal footing of a developing fetus with a full grown child after the actual birth. That BS has been shot down six ways to Sunday over the years by the majority of the medical profession through out the world. Since all this point of controversy SOLELY TAKES PLACE IN A WOMAN'S BODY, it sure as hell is about control. And if you deny someone access to medical procedures and/or facilities that they need, that is a form of control....like the idiot pharmacist who lost his job because he wouldn't provide services to people because it violated his personal beliefs. Your revisionism on the practical reality of an action's consequence is irrelevant.

    5. Fascinating how you purposely misinterpret what you can't disprove or refute.

    6. You condescend and then pretend not to.....thus YOU try to tell me how I am to interpret what you say, while feigning insult. Whatever...as the late great James Brown said, "don't start none, won't be none".

    7. Translation: you can't give a straight answer so you bluff.
     
  18. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    Quit stalling, as you can't seriously be this ignorant of the whole abortion issue involving the federal & state law. If you are, then go get educated before trying to debate what you don't know.
     
  19. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    BS...that's an old argument not held up by the vast majority of the medical profession throughout the world. folk like you don't give a damn about kids in the foster care system, and complain about your tax dollars going to social services. So knock off the hypocrisy, please.
     
  20. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    We're not discussing philosophy, we're talking about existing laws and regulations geared to prevent a woman from a private decision between her and her doctor regarding possible termination of a pregnancy. Since folk like you want to take away a choice based on a philosophy and NOT a medical reality...(a developing fetus is NOT a full birthed baby), the OP merely puts forth a proposal that puts a similar onus on men to PREVENT unwanted pregnancy! Seems you want women to bear the brunt of gov't control, but not men. Hypocritical, that.
     
  21. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    Well, given that the vast majority of people on welfare are single, unwed mothers...I'd say they are indirectly stating quite loudly that they don't won't a say or anything to do with this.
     
  22. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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  23. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the information: an unfair and convoluted decision by the individual states, to say the least.

    But

    How does this change the validity of the OP? Given that the goal is to prevent unwanted pregnancy, and some states want a woman to carry a pregnancy to term regardless of the way she got impregnated, why is the OP proposal so abhorrent to many?
     
  24. kungfuliberal

    kungfuliberal Well-Known Member

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    WTF? Elucidate please.
     
  25. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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