Evidence for The Creator: Entropy

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Mar 13, 2020.

  1. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well they could say the creator created the rules of the game while existing outside of this universe. Infinite power can do anything. That is why they call it god.
     
  2. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Faith is enough for me. When you stumble and relent that matter and energy has "always existed", I realize your dilemma. I don't pretend to know. There is an Alpha and Omega. .... an intelligent Creator.
     
  3. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Not understanding something is no excuse for making up an imaginary sky fairy. Entropy is a useful concept for thermodynamics, i.e. a model for how things behave under normal circumstances. This does not imply that increasing entropy is the master law of all things and cannot ever be violated. Obviously it's not because order exists - it had to have been different at some point and at some condition. This fact does not necessitate making up supernatural explanations. At worst, we can say we just don't know. At best, we can read Stephen Hawkings books for now.

    I honestly do wish there was a creator who cared for me and I would even be willing to do silly things like go to Church in order to go to some paradise. But I can't believe something just because it would be better than what reality seems to be.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  4. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Could the precursor to god have EVOLVED from a lesser form such as a simian tree dwelling demi god? ;)
     
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  5. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    That negates attributes like omnipotence and caring.
     
  6. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    This is the Science thread not the Religion thread. So why insist on conflating the two. Is your faith in the existence of God is so weak you are literally driven into trying convince yourself (and others) that he exists by dressing that existence up in the clothing of science. Get over it, God can exists without trying to prove it scientifically and science can exist with out having to disprove the existence of God.

    One more time, religion and science address different truths in different ways, neither undermines the other. Nor does belief in one preclude belief in the other.
     
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  7. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Given the persistence of these threads and the endless FAILED attempts to present "evidence" for his IMAGINARY deity it is patently obvious that the OP falls into the category of "ye of little faith" in this regard. ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  8. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you familiar with the word "Know"?
     
  9. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    :roll:

    Progressive indoctrinees like to accuse, 'Liar!!', when they have no facts or arguments.

    The FACT is, that entropy PREVENTS the entire presupposition of abiogenesis, increasing complexity via evolution, and many other religious fantasies preached as 'settled science!' by State Sponsored Indoctrination institutions.

    Unable to explain ANY mechanism to overcome entropy, to begin the highly complex phenomenon of life, or the amazing order in the physical universe that allegedly 'just happened!', they resort to fallacies and outrage.

    They are anti-science ideologues, not rational, scientific minded people.

    ..billions of years, millions, thousands, hundreds, or decades.. there is still no mechanism to overcome entropy, in the RELIGIOUS BELIEF of 'big bang!, 'abiogenesis!', 'atheistic naturalism!', or any other unscientific religious beliefs, masquerading as 'settled science!' among the bobbleheaded indoctrinees in Progresso World.

    No, that is not observable reality. Life is moving toward LESS diversity, less complexity, and genomic entropy.

    The whole premise of increasing complexity is a religious fantasy.
     
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  10. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    'Liar!!', accusations, and other arguments of indignation and accusation, only exposes the jihadism and unscientific methodology of progressive indoctrinees.

    Deflect with irrelevant accusations if you wish. You still have no mechanism or process for overcoming entropy, in the universe. Whether the fantasies of abiogenesis, or big bang cosmology, or universal common ancestry, entropy makes those beliefs impossible.

    ..yes.. like the unscientific progressive indoctrinees, who claim 'settled science!', for their BELIEFS in atheistic naturalism.

    Good points. Entropy is an obvious problem, for the Believers in abiogenesis and common ancestry. Dismissing it and parroting their Indoctrination does not make a compelling scientific argument.

    Wishful thinking..

    'Any day, now, we'll prove life can begin spontaneously, WITHOUT a pesky God to terrify us!'

    :roflol:

    Definitional deflections denotes desperation

    Are you implying that entropy is NOT universal? What part of your universe is ecempt from the dissipating effects of entropy? Why? How?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  11. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    :roll:

    So you believe. So you assert. But you have no first hand knowledge of the universe, and the conditions you speculate on.

    ..a speculative conjecture, with no evidentiary basis.

    Contention, hysteria, jihadism, and outrage are the primary 'arguments' of progressive indoctrinees. Science, facts, and reason are foreign to them.

    ..not understanding the Creator, or the True nature of the universe is no justification for imagining godless naturalism.

    All we can do is examine the FACTS, as objectively as possible, and see what they suggest.

    The evidence overwhelmingly suggests a Creator, not random chance and atheistic naturalism.

    'Atheism is science! Creationism is religion!'

    :roll:
     
  12. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Your ABJECT FAILURE to rationally and objectively address the SCIENCE that you are ABUSING says volumes.

    Entropy is a PROPERTY of matter/energy.

    Creation and Destruction are also PROPERTIES of matter/energy.

    Your IMAGINARY "creator" MUST address ALL of the PROPERTIES defined by the Laws of Physics in order for your bovine excrement "hypothesis" to withstand the scrutiny of the Scientific Method.

    Standing on a theist soapbox screaming "liar" like a sidewalk proselytizer when the drivel is exposed as having no factual or logical basis establishes the superficiality of the OP rant about entropy.

    Sad!
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  13. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    :roflol:

    Please EXPOUND on YOUR personal "first hand knowledge of the universe".

    "Goddidit!"

    :roflol:

    Not understanding SCIENCE, or the true nature of the Scientific Method is no justification for imagining a fictional "creator".
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  14. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I suppose "Atheistic Naturalism" is your convoluted way of saying Evolution but that is not what was being discussed. Though I well understand your usual goalpost moves are the acceptance of a losing position it is tiresome and rather pathetic. This is not dodgeball.
     
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  15. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    'Deflect with irrelevant accusations if you wish. You still have no mechanism or process for overcoming entropy, in the universe. Whether the fantasies of abiogenesis, or big bang cosmology, or universal common ancestry, entropy makes those beliefs impossible.'

    The depth of lack of understating is literally mind boggling. If your literal interpretation of entropy was true you couldn't light a match, start your car in the morning, turn on a light switch, split the atom or even exist.

    The very process of entropy implies a flow of energy from a higher level to a lower level. In that process work can always be extracted. Doesn't matter if it a hydro dam generating electricity, metabolic processes turning stored energy (sugar) into work via muscles, chemical combustion in a car or a firearm converting heat energy into physical motion or for that matter a star fusing hydrogen. Heat always flows from high to low - doing 'work' along the way

    And that 'work' includes life. Matter is nothing more than stored energy. And in the presence of a temporary (in universal terms) heat source i.e the Sun that matter can combine via chemical processes into complex structures. But that increased in complexity is strictly localized and temporary. It comes at a cost i.e. in 4-6 billion years or so the heat powering the whole process ends. After that entropy wins.
     
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  16. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    No science is science. Religion is religion. There's this book called a dictionary, among other things it defines these two terms. You should use one sometime. Because, and I'm sorry if this comes as a shock, they are not the same thing.
     
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  17. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Been pondering that point and I am not certain that is absolute.

    Once the heat has all dissipated the remaining matter still has momentum which is Kinetic Energy capable of doing work even if the temperature is now absolute zero.

    Then there is gravity which remains as an attractive force which could cause the remaining matter to coalesce into ever larger clusters.

    So what am I missing here? Does all matter come to a standstill and gravity stop functioning once the heat is gone?
     
  18. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Current scientific modelling seems to imply that as all the matter in the universe cools it will inevitably be drawn by gravitational forces into dense regions of space where black holes will 'ingest' it. Once all matter available has been consumed Hawking radiation will result in the black holes themselves decaying to the point where there is no conventional matter left in the universe other than that produced by the quantum foam.

    This is assuming of course that universal expansion continues apace, there is still (increasing?) debate about whether or not this expansion will reverse and/or some other process will start a new 'Big Bang'.

    Here endeth my layman's knowledge of the current scientific status quo.
     
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  19. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    And nobody is denying that entropy is slowly killing the stars and will one day extinguish life. But you claimed that the stars should all be dead right now, and didn't present any evidence for your belief that stars don't last as long as scientists think they do.
     
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  20. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

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    The First Law of Thermodynamics has PROVEN that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. That means it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity. Only its FORM can change.
     
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  21. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

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    First of all I gave you an unassailable example where entropy does not exist.
    So let's look at your new falsehood, increasing complexity is impossible without an imaginary creator. Let's take that non-entropic atom and put a bunch of them at random, some the same and some different, in proximity to each other and see what happens. According to you their randomness can never decrease, but observation shows some of those atoms combining into molecules which are more complex and less entropic! And further observation shows those molecules combining with other molecules and other atoms to form even more complex molecules.

    In reality YOU are the one indoctrinated and PROJECTING your indoctrination on anyone who isn't indoctrinated like you.
     
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  22. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

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    I didn't IMPLY anything, I gave you a real world example of something that impossible to exist if it was entropic, the atom. How could you have missed it if you weren't indoctrinated to ignore anything that contradicts your fallacies!
     
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  23. edthecynic

    edthecynic Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, and the Third Law of Thermodynamics says that there is no temperature at which all motion (kinetic energy) stops!
     
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  24. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Something out of nothing......
     
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  25. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    That is an excellent example. Thermo and orbital mechanics don't really mix, do they?

    Thermo is, in my opinion, possibly the most misunderstood of all physical "laws".

    There are a few weird and possibly inaccurate comments in this thread about these laws.

    There are four.

    Law zero is just basic logic and all it says is that if the temperature of A = C and B = C then A = B and all three systems or objects of mass are in thermal equilibrium.

    Law one basically states that there is no free lunch. It is not the basis for the principle of the conservation of mass and energy. All it says is that a system does not produce work output without energy input.

    Law two only really states that not only is there no free lunch, but you don't even get what you pay for. It's just a mathematical statement of friction losses and the fact that there is no such thing as a reversible process. It is expounded upon ad infinitum in all kinds of marginal ways including information theory. Seriously, information theory supposedly has found ways to apply the empirical laws of thermo.

    Law three, contrary to a previous post, makes no statement about the energy content of either a static or ripping along at near light speed piece of mass at absolute zero. All it asserts is that the entropy of an elemental crystal mass at absolute zero approaches and also equals absolute zero.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

    Interestingly enough, you can google it to the end of the internet and you will not find in any of these four laws a statement regarding the what I guess should be the (-1) law, that heat transfers only from hot to cold.

    Citing these laws to prove or disprove the existence of the Creator and or Creationism is whatever I suppose one wants to make of it.
     

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