Why did Jesus curse the fig tree?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by DennisTate, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It was out of season for figs. Treatment of God's creation in such a way is hardly a good example. It could not disobey natures laws - even for the supposed Son of God. The fact is it was the action of a bad tempered human. Even Jewish priests could be so, and Jesus was simply a Jewish preacher. No proven evidence for anything else. And we have no proof it withered. Mark wasn't there and Matthew was not given to the truth. Look at his misleading use of OT scripture to try to prove Jesus divinity.
     
  2. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    As for "near-death experiences", they are by definition unreliable. The tales are interesting and may tell us something about ourselves, but the potential for sheer hallucination in such a circumstance bars an observer for taking it as meaning too much.
     
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  3. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    The point of what he told them later is being missed here.
     
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  4. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How do you know what he told them? There are many words put in Jesus mouth by the Gospel writers that a Jew would not say. If he had he would have been ostracized.
     
  5. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This explains why I can't stop eating strawberry Fig Newtons.
     
  6. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You mean except for the part where they are often clinically dead.
     
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  7. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    That actually proves that there is nothing supernatural about NDEs.
    That is only because the clinician definition of dead is bogus. Dead is dead when you are not coming back.
     
  8. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Right.

    The clinical definition of dead is "bogus".
     
  9. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    "Ostracized". Is that worse than crucifixion?
    Anyway, the question is moot; no one can know what Jesus said with 100% certainty. It is just that some things are so counter intuitive, so challenging to his listeners' preconceptions, so audacious that it is difficult to believe they are just made up.
    This is also why so many of his words are so ridiculously interpreted, their complexity so overlooked. He turned table so well on his inquisitors that they didn't even see it, and very many today don't see it, either.
    Take the incident where a trap is set for him about paying taxes to Caesar. They want him to either defy Rome and condemn himself or capitulate to Rome and betray his people and faith. Instead, he turns it on them. He holds up a coin and asks whose image it is. Of course, they say "Caesar's", so he says to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God what is God's. If they really believed in God, they would have seen that all belongs to God. Their fascination with Caesar's money was a fascination with an image.
     
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  10. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Do you even know what it is. Look it up. Has zip to do with actually being dead.
     
  11. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really.

    Why don't you explain to us what your definition of dead is then.

    You can't use brain activity, respiration, or heartbeat, since that would be the "bogus" clinical definition.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  12. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree that we don't know exactly what words were spoken by Jesus BUT he is quoted as not denying that he was the Son of God. How does that fit in with the fact that he would have said the Jewish Shema every time he went to a service in the synagogue.
    Sh'ma Yisra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
    Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

    Just one instance.
     
  13. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Clinically dead means no breathing and no pulse. The brain can stay alive for 5 to 10 minutes after the heart and lungs stop working. There is still some brain activity and this is what causes NDEs. You are mistaking clinically dead with actually dead. If a person an still be revived they are still alive enough for brain activity. If their brains stop having activity it's impossible for them to be revived.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It fits in the same way that a certain verse in the Psalms must be understood properly.

    https://www.christianforums.com/bible/john/10/

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, who hath given [them] unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

    30 I and the Father are one.

    31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.

    32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

    33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?

    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am [the] Son of God?

    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

    38 But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

    Psalms 82:6
    "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."


    A near death experiencer was shown that there are fourteen Elohim......
    the Beings who spoke in Genesis 1 verse twenty six and twenty seven......

    Seven male and seven female.... they are the Seven Spirits of G-d.

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

    Another near death experiencer was shown that one of the members of the Elohim gives a spark to each spirit of each human that is about to be conceived on the earth.
     
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  15. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Psalms 82:6
    "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."


    6
    I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High. (Hebrew) Jews believe they are all sons of the most high as members of Israel, even as Jesus the Jewish preacher was.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  16. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Read all of the passages that are about fig trees and you will get a clue = https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...;CEV;TLB;ERV;NLT&searchtype=all&resultspp=500

    It is just a metaphor.
     
  17. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    That is one reason why they think that they should rule the world.
     
  18. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not mistaking clinically dead with anything.

    Clinically dead is the definition of dead.
     
  19. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pretty good explanation of the lesson being taught.
     
  20. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    RE fig trees, they bear fruit before they grow leaves, so it was completely natural to expect to find figs when there are leaves on a fig tree. This sort of basic error based on ignorance is why Christian believers have nothing to fear from the pseudo-rationalists' and assorted neo-pagan deviants who constantly troll this forum with utter rubbish and really should just ignore them for the most part on any topic.

    As for the parable's meaning, it meant that Israel was dead as a nation, and wasn't coming back, as would be the beliefs of those who were bringing about a return to the 'old school' Torah teachings,a s opposed to the post-exile pseudo-Judaism that imposed 'racial purity' laws and drifted away from the Covenants for the next 500 years or so. It was a lesson on the coming destruction of the Temple, which is why the parable is sandwiched around his cleansing of the moneylenders tables.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  21. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Re Christians and the Shema, there is no real conflict. See this exegesis for just one links between Judaism and Christian gentiles beliefs. It is in fact reinforced in Christian tenets throughout the New Testament.

    https://legacy.tyndalehouse.com/Bulletin/59=2008/2 Huat Tan.pdf

    ... and several more of like methodologies. Again all of the above errors and falsehoods can easily be avoided by the use of basic scholarship, and none need to be believers to find this information and evidence. It's in all the texts of the early orthodox translations themselves, all based entirely in the decades before the fall of the 2nd Temple. The dishonesty of the Xian bashers is blatant and infantile, and certainly doesn't represent anything to do with 'rational dissent' and discussion, it's purely trolling, lying, and harassment.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
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  22. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    The bolded part should read " as for the parable's meaning, ONE of the several meanings in the lesson is that Israel was dead as a nation ...", but the time limit had passed on editing it so here it is
     
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  23. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Middle east fig trees bear two crops of fruit a year. And there is no 'parable'. It's just an event - nothing more.. Yours is sim[ly Christian teaching.

    And all the nonsense about Israel - the Northern Kingdom being taken into captivity because they worshipped false gods is nonsense. If the had been worshipping Jahweh they would still have been taken. They defied the Assyrians and paid the penalty. The Southern Kingdom defied Babylon and paid the price by 'signing' a treaty with Egypt - Babylon's enemy. It's just the OT writers way of describing the nature of Jahweh. Christians use a similar idea. They pray for something. If it happens it was God's will. If it doesn't - it wasn't. God's nature.

    'Isaiah' and Jeremiah didn't prophecy anything. It was clear from what was going on in the kingdoms and the nations around what was going to happen. When the Northern Kingdom allied itself with others against the Assyrians they were not going to win in the end. Ditto with Judea and Egypt. Ditto with Jesus and the Temple. Palestine in Jesus time wasn't a peaceful place. False Messiahs came and were destroyed by the Romans. Sicarri murders abounded. The Jews rioted whenever taxes were declared and Jerusalem was troublesome to the Romans at Passover time. The Romans always moved more troops into Jerusalem at that Festival to control rowdy Jews from all over the known world. Jesus could see what was going to happen eventually. The Zealots and their Sicarri were always going to bring things to a head. There have been people like this down through history who are astute enough to understand the situation and warn. Churchill was one in the 1930's, warning about Hitler and his intentions. He was right.

    As to the destruction of Israel. Israel is still alive and has been down through the centuries. There have been small enclaves in Palestine throughout the ages. Battered at times but still in existence.
     
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  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    May I assume from this post that you do not believe that the Prophet Isaiah was given the name "Cyrus" or "Koresh" a century or more before Cyrus rose to power?

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/45/1/s_724001
    I don't suppose that..... you might find my theory interesting......that Isaiah might have been King David reincarnated according to the Gilgul cycle!



    2Samuel 6:22

    “and I will dishonor myself and humble myself even more.[fn][fn] However, by the slave girls you spoke about, I will be honored.”


    Isaiah 20:3

    the LORD said, “As my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot three years as a sign and omen against Egypt and Cush,
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  25. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    The cursing of the fig tree is a metaphor. As Joseph Campbell once said. All religions provide some truth using metaphor. But when you consider metaphor as literal fact, you are in trouble
     
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