Can democracy survive capitalism?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by EarthSky, Mar 11, 2020.

  1. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    I completely disagree.
    1. The USSR called themselves that because they knew socialism was much more moderate, fairer, more caring & compassionate, & more popular than communism. They tried to portray themselves to the public as more moderate by calling themselves "socialist." It was pure propaganda, but it worked for some.
    2. Socialism & communism are VERY DIFFERENT SYSTEMS. Socialism is capitalism with a heart. Communism doesn't allow capitalism to exist. How can they be the same?
    3. Based on your post, I guess for you, Cold War propaganda was right on--ours & theirs. :( So sorry you couldn't see beyond it.
     
  2. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Definition of socialism.
    a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    Definition of communism.
    a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

    Same exact thing..

    Owned and regulated by the community. Is the same exact thing as publicly owned..
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  3. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    I guess one could agree with you if one accepted the argument that St Bernards & Chihuahuas are exactly the same thing--both dogs. But for me, that's just too generalized. I see many important & compelling distinctions even contained in your post definitions. But if you want to continue seeing them as the same thing, I don't want to disrupt your illusions.
     
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  4. tharock220

    tharock220 Well-Known Member

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    Democracy was born from capitalism.
     
  5. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    There is no individual freedom without democracy!
     
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  6. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Interesting reply. I don't know you from Adam Smith so this is in no way meant to insult you or to discount your experience but merely an observation.

    Here is what I would say to your comment. You seem to be saying that wealthy people seem to more honest, reliable and keep their word because they have better character. I would suggest that wealthy people are no more endowed with these admirable characteristics than anyone else and in some cases far less so - especially in the cutthroat world of finance or politics.

    And here is the thing with saying we only associate with good people - goodness is a subjective term that we tend to give to people who think the same way we do and have the same values that we do. There is no ultimate goodness or honour other than what we have learned from our own value system.

    So really, it isn't this just another way of reinforcing the political, economic and spiritual bubbles we are all living in and separating us from each other on socio-economic boundaries?

    And the trouble with that is it leads us to think that our own confirmation bias is in fact reality and isolates us from new ideas and innovative ways of thinking that could pave the way for future progress.

    In fact is isolates us from diversity of opinion and further separates us as people. A good analogy is in evolutionary biology and diversity. One set of characteristics (and I use that word as direct reference to your use of people of "character") may be very beneficial under a certain set of conditions but when conditions and environment changes, that same asset could be the very thing that renders you unfit for survival in new circumstances. This happens all the time over the course of evolutionary history. It is the stuff of evolution.

    It stands to reason that the more diversity and flexibility you have, the better chance you have in surviving in new and changing conditions while the more inbred and stagnant the gene pool is the less chance you have to adapt.

    You may think that it is ridiculous to compare biology to economics but is it? Right now you are saying you run a business and that business if firmly ensconced in the bosom of the most powerful empire on Earth. But that can change. Environmental conditions can change, wars happen, there could be another great depression, we could see a global pandemic that wipes out large parts of the technologically dependent society we live in. (not saying that is what is happening today but this could be a good dress rehearsal)

    Can you see how living in a bubble of people we think are honourable because they think just like us and being dependent on a supply chain of similarly homogeneous organizations could be a detriment in this situation?

    Keep in mind the world is always changing.
     
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  7. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Wrong.
     
  8. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Democracy is the fastest way to get rid of individual freedom..
     
  9. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Isn't capitalism essentially democracy where the customers decide/vote on what products or services they want to buy. The things that are not very popular because the people do not want it, those companies and those products go out of business
     
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  10. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing that states socialism is necessarily totalitarian any more than all the American backed dictatorships in the world prove that America must be by definition - totalitarian.

    I don't agree that democratic socialism's benefit to the average person is less because of non-growth. What I think is that unfettered capitalism's need for constant profit and constant growth cannot be maintained in a world of finite land and resources. The Earth is not exactly a closed system in scientific terms but it might as well be for human purposes.

    Unfettered capitalism will exhaust the last death throws of the planet and tells us there is nothing we can do about it because that is the natural order of things.

    I disagree. I think we are better than this and that we can and must manage our civilizations impact and devastating consequence for our beautiful little jewel of a planet.

    America's economic power was largely inherited from the former British Empire and that it reached almost full industrial capacity after WWII. Combine that with the fact that almost all of Europe and large parts of Asia were completely destroyed and needed to be rebuilt while fortress North America remained mostly undisturbed by that war.

    This is not to take away from what America achieved creating a global economic empire that stretched from the Philippines and Japan to Germany but it was not so much free enterprise as an excess of production and vast amounts of capital to be invested in rebuilding the world in it's own image.

    Don't forget that after the war, American policy was as far left and socialist as it had ever been with thriving socialist and even communist parties until the came under direct attack during the red scare period until now. Also keep in mind that those socialist policies left over from the new deal created possibly the greatest era of equality and human prosperity ever known to man as well as much of the infrastructure we take for granted today.

    Then those same policies began to be dismantled and destroyed on piece at a time - and here we are today..........

    And nobody is taking away what America achieved - I am only lamenting that America could have achieved so much more in creating peace and prosperity around the world if only it could have found common ground with the enemies it always needed to manufacture to justify it's military posturing and weapons industry.
     
  11. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    So of course one sentence statements of fact from some guy on the internet with nothing to back them up can be dismissed as just that - the opinion of some dude on the internet with nothing to back it up.

    So you are anti-democratic. Nothing new there. You're country is headed down this path more every day.
     
  12. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    I'm not anti democratic at all. However in a pure democracy it's simply mob rule and and a mob will take away minority rights whenever they want..

    It is our constitution that keeps us free, and being a democratic republic with a constitution that's very hard to change keeps things going relatively close to where they are supposed to be.

    The people should always have a say but the mob needs to be tempered with law.
     
  13. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    How so?
     
  14. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    How so?
     
  15. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    See above.
     
  16. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not quite right. SOME wealthy people have those characteristics. SOME ordinary people have those characteristics. There are not enough of them in any level of society
    I said that I had learned to read character in people and try to limit my relationships, both personal and business, to those who have the best character. And there is always a level of character beyond what you are raised with- IF you are a person who chooses to make his own choices. You have to be able to look at the hand you were dealt, identify the things that are wrong and replace them with what you think is right. You will raise your children with that long before the process is complete, and part of what you pass along will still be flawed. IF you have raised your children well- they too will be strong enough to take what you have given them, identify what is wrong- and improve it again. This is the evolution of societies thinking, and it is a work in progress. We just need to stop the part where it sometimes goes backwards instead of forwards.

    This is not something that just anybody can do. It's possible, but most will lack the courage to do it. It's not at all dangerous- but it does scare people, because it requires letting go of the only security you have to reach something better.... you can't go to that higher level until you let go on the one you are at. No other way. That is unfortunate, in that nothing would serve our society better than to have a majority of people with strong, just personal standards. As one psychologist long ago stated- "Widespread good character would be a social vaccine, that could cure the majority of our ills."

    Personal strength is also something that greatly broadens what we can handle without being destroyed; it allow us to survive the various perils that life will inevitably throw at us.
    I can't change other people- they must change themselves, nobody else can do it. But they have to know how, which is why I taught this and will continue to promote it the rest of my life.
     
  17. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, who needs the rule of law to protect the individual, when you have a pure democracy
     
  18. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    democracy doesn't protect individual rights . democracy ONLY protects the will of the majority..

    that's why our founding fathers rejected the idea of democracy for America.
     
  19. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That was my point. Maybe I was too satirical.
     
  20. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Democracy does not assure individual freedom and liberty and occasionally -- or sometimes often -- detracts from individual freedom and liberty.
     
  21. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Socialism by definition must be totalitarianistic. You cannot have a socialistic government that does not have absolute power and control over the people and the economy, which they and they alone own. The fantasy that socialism is run by the people as a collective whole is just that -- a pure fantasy......., dreamland

    Nobody supports unfettered capitalism. Unfettered capitalism is chaos, completely unproductive, and 100% strawman. Unfettered anything is of no benefit to the populace. And since the government provides the laws and regulations that keep any system in check, government is the police of socialism that government owns, and that is a clear recipe for disaster for the people.

    ......
    America's economic power made the British Empire pale by comparison long before WWII. And it was America who rebuilt the world after WWII.

    ......
    The New Deal did practically nothing to improve the standards of the populace and exacerbated the depression that was primarily started under Hoover. The New Deal in no way created equality and prosperity. The great American prosperity is a direct result of capitalism's free private enterprise, aided by WWII. After WWII the policies of Truman, Eisenhower, and JFK were neither far left nor socialistic. Not until LBJ did the far left and socialism get a nose in the tent.

    ......
    America is by far the most powerful country ever and has used its power to help, not subdue, other people far mare than any country in history.
     

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