Who gets the ventilator in the coronavirus pandemic?

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by Bowerbird, Mar 18, 2020.

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  1. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ntilator-in-the-coronavirus-pandemic/12063536

    Title truncated to fit

    This is an excellent article that discusses the ethics around allocating resources in a crisis. This WILL be played out in ICUs around the world as critical care equipment and staff are stretched to the limit. Some countries, like Australia, have thought ahead and made mass purchases of expensive equipment (a high end ventilator of the type to deal with covid induced ARDS costs around $55,000 Aus). Thing is this equipment is in limited supply so it is going to be “first in first served” and as the stockpiles dwindle so does availability to any healthcare service that has not already put in purchases

    “Death panels” may be inevitable
     
  2. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Doctors are trained in triage protocol from day one - a sad, but necessary part of the profession.
     
  3. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    I have it on good authority that in the UK, patients over 70 will not receive ICU treatment over those under 70. Those over 70 will be told to stay at home. The cut off will drop to 65 if not enough ICUs are available
     
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  4. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The minute triage begins, we’ll hear the left screaming about Trump’s “Death Panels”.

    The lack of ventilators will solely be placed on Trump. He should have seen this coming ten years ago.
     
  5. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The UK has already done that with cancer.
     
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  6. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    The US does it every day as well - it's called Hospice.
     
  7. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    No they don't. Many older people choose not to have treatment as cancer in older people grows slower and the side effects of treatment is often worse than the cancer itself. It does not take up much resources to treat cancer patients as treatment such as chemo and radio therapy is often carried out on out patients.
     
  8. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's sad but inevitable if the number of people requiring intensive care vastly outstrips the beds available as is predicted. It has already happened in Italy which has one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
    I doubt that my 80 yr old mother who has dementia and is suffering from osteoporosis will get a look in which is why I have stopped visiting her and her 70 yr old partner and don't plan to see her until this is over.
     
  9. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    What like the right screamed about “death panels” alll through the Obama era
     
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  10. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Why would you think that??
     
  11. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First come first served imo, irrespective of condition or possibility of survival.

    Not everything in ethics is about outcomes. There's no point in surviving as a species if we lose our humanity in the process.
     
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  12. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    This is in the article under the “egalitarian approach” and it does have some merit. Certainly we are seeing that outcome world wide as some countries have cornered the market buying up medical equipment and those countries like America which are late into the planning are facing massive shortages

    But truth is we WILL be forced into making those decisions

    I would clout anyone who tried to put my aged and terminally demented parent into a ventilator - she would not understand and it would be cruel. Far kinder to let her pass
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  13. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If she wants care she should be on an equal footing with everyone else, even if she is terminally ill. If she wants euthenasia so be it.

    That's my view anyway.
     
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  14. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Reading dozens of articles.

    They basically say if you’re 70+ in the U.K. and you have cancer, go home and take an aspirin.
     
  15. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Be more selective in where you source the articles you read then.
     
  16. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no point in being humane if it requires you to lose your identity. For example, is it humane for a teacher to tell a child who’s poor at math that bathe child is good? Or is it more humane to tell the truth.

    Here’s the truth, COVID-19 demands the best within us ask the best among us to make the best rational decisions based on objectivity, not warm feelings.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  17. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Technocracy is not the answer. If I have to kill Grandma to live I don't want to be a survivor, count me out.

    A crisis is not an excuse for authoritarianism. Every crisis demonstrates this with hindsight, but we forget next time around, in the moment.
     
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  18. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ventilators should be given out in this order:

    1) conservatives
    2) Republicans
    3) Democrats
    4) liberals
    5) socialists
    6) communists

    We must keep our humor, even in these dark times ....
     
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  19. fiddlerdave

    fiddlerdave Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trump's and Republican policies have caused the shutdown of hundred of hospitals.

    We are really going to miss those beds, supplies and nursing personnel in the next weeks. Thousands will be dying regularly.

    Hundreds of thousands of poor who were prevented from health care be Republican prevented from getting into Obamacare in the 22 states who were left to die are the exactly Republicans wanted..

    Trump's and the Republican Death Panels are exactly what they have created.
     
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  20. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Grandma will die with or without this virus; on its present course, so will the economy. What was gained?

    And while technocracy, whatever it means, may not be the answer, technology is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  21. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Government interference and regulation of the healthcare market are the fertile grounds of death panels; they are impossible in a capitalist economy. And no, America is not a capitalist economy, it’s a statist mixed economy. And therein lays the true virus of this economic catastrophe.
     
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  22. DivineComedy

    DivineComedy Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem saving the young first, let me go last; women and children first kind of thing.

    I just have a problem with commie pinko Obamanation hypocrite DEMOCRATS wanting to shove grandma off a cliff while blaming others for it.
     
  23. fiddlerdave

    fiddlerdave Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The lessons of China and Italy are clear - the utter overwhelming crush of very sick patients are what USA is trying to reduce.

    We aren't into the thick of the hell that is starting, it is just beginning.

    The mathematically challenged Republicans who think that what is happening RIGHT NOW don't get it.

    The Flood that is coming is what we are trying to mitigate. Its not here yet. Say the same in a few weeks or a month.
     
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  24. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually Medicare in the US has replaced physicals with "wellness visits" where they ask you to remember three words and ask if you can see a wall 10 feet away.
     
  25. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    She cannot decide the difference between a knife and fork anymore let alone lie impacting issues
     

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