Migrants clash with Greek police at border after Turkey opens floodgates

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Thedimon, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nationalism and patriotism CAN go malignant.
    Mostly they DON'T..
    (Switzerland, Finland, Holland, Spain, Belgium, England etc..)

    Socialism can go malignant,
    mostly it DOES.
    (Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, Cambodia, China, Russia etc..)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  2. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are not nationalist 'cultures', neither is Greece, Italy, Russia, Serbia - although Italy, Spain and Greece did tend towards fascism when fighting communism. The Central Europeans like Germany tend to be nationalist, as well as the countries that became part off the Austrian Empire such as Hungary, Croatia and Western Ukraine.

    Communism was imposed on the Russian people and China against their will, otherwise tens of millions wouldn't have died. As for Cuba and Venezuela, I think it was the will of the people.
     
  3. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    By "nationalism" and "patriotism" I mean a love of your country, culture, history etc..
    That brand of Socialism called "National" was an aberration of nationalism.
    IMO there's two brands of Socialism - national Socialism and international Socialism.
    That's where the early Zionist movement nearly foundered - most Jews were German
    nationalists or Russian internationalists.
     
  4. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Back to the Greek border and the migrants:

    Other than the usual chemical attacks by the Turks, which the Greek police are sending right back to them with a huge fan, the Turks have now resorted to electronic warfare. Ankara has a system which is able to interrupt the communications between the Greek police, something they used in Syria. Frankly I think Erdogan is fighting against time, because of the Coronavirus.


    In the meantime, Turkey made an agreement with Muslim Albania to house migrants in Northern Epirus next to the Greek territory taken by Albania during Greece's civil war. I guess this way the migrants can commit terrorist attacks on the Greek population and ethnically cleanse them - which is probably what they wanted to do on the islands with the hospitality centers.

    Other than that, the German Bild wrote that Turkey is preparing for an attack on Greece. If it does, it will probably be on Greek Easter in the middle of April. It's traditional with them.
     
  5. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  6. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As a casual observer in this area (not an expert by any means), I would think Turkey would have less friends in Europe now than it did a few years ago based on the direction of its government.
     
  7. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wrong question. We ought to be asking, "How much longer will the EU exist?"
     
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  8. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That sounds illogical to me. Turkey won the last war with Greece and I can think it is content with that feather in its cap.
     
  9. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  10. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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  11. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you think S. Africa would have been better off if the Whites never came? Do you think there would have been peace and no wars between tribes? What about children, do you think they would have had more to eat and not died from sicknesses? And then again what about laws, do you think they were more humane before Christianity came into Africa?
     
  12. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Turkey needs cheap oil desperately. They have searched in their waters, but to no avail. In the meantime Greece's waters when united with Cyprus covers almost all the Eastern Mediterranean, and not only is it mineral rich, but also a transit point for the gas to go from Israel to Europe.

    Erdogan believes the Turks were victimized after WWI, and that everything the Ottoman Empire lost was unjust. As for the Greek islands which gives Greece the claim to so much territorial waters, Erdogan tells his people that they were stolen by the Greeks.

    Erdogan also believes that the Treaty of Lausanne was only accepted by Attaturk as an alternative to the Treaty of Sevres, which would have divided Anatolia and given the land Turkey is on to the people living there such as the Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, and Kurds.

    Besides Erdogan's political aspirations, he has a messianic vision of himself as the leader of Islam, and that he was given a mandate to complete the conquests of Europe started by Sultan Mehmet II. Greece today is weak, so he sees it as the opportune time to attack.

    The last war between Greece and Turkey was in 1922, and the Greeks won every war until then - which is why the Turks are so paranoid. In 1922 the British told the war torn Greeks who had just fought in Crimea, to take over Smyrna before the Italians grabbed it. They did, but instead of consolidating their position, they decided to take Constantinople which at that time was predominantly Greek, and they found themselves facing the British and French armies.

    This is when Attaturk pulled his forces together and began his ethnic cleansing campaign. He retook Smyrna and signed the Lausanne Treaty which threw 2 million Greeks into a nation of 3 million Greeks. As for Turkey, the last war it won was the one against Cyprus, when a nation of 60 million defeated a nation of 6 hundred thousand.
     
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  13. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A very prophetic Greek saint said the EU will break up at its inception, and that Britain will be the first to leave. Italy asked Germany for help and Germany refused and China is now helping them. I think Italy will be the next country to leave.
     
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  14. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't want to walk into a minefield over all of this but ... really ..... all of those islands to Greece? No, I do not agree that Greece should own all of them. I could write a whole lot more on this issue (all of it my personal opinion, you understand) but because of Greece's attitude to Cyprus (in particular) and the Greeks whinging about every other nation and people on the face of the earth .... I can say that I have probably sided with the Turks vis-à-vis the Greeks in every confrontation in modern time .... except for this migration thing.
     
  15. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The EU has become a real can of worms. The original concept was good but the addition of so many nations that have been coerced (my own included) is appalling.

    Germany helped Greece a thousand times (though Greece didn't deserve it) and perhaps Germany has now learned its lesson. We can discuss and argue the attributes of China's willingness (and maybe even its personal agenda) to help Italy but in the end, had the EU been a descent organisation this would never have happened in the first place.

    The EU is now a piece of excrement and if Brussels cannot instigate a thorough reformation then the union ought to be dissolved. There. I said it.
     
  16. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Germany didn't help Greece, no more than it helped other nations. That's a fallacy. Greece was deliberately thrown into debt and wasn't allowed to recover through Merkel's 'austerity'. Thousands died because of it, but it's all part of the new world order. Had Greece been allowed to declare bankruptcy like Iceland, they would have recovered in two years, instead Germany didn't want Greece to default on the banks so it threw them into debt.

    They should have left the EU at that time, but they didn't, instead they kept falling into more and more debt - none of which went to the people. Instead it all went back to pay the interest, and what remained was used to buy subs and other arms from Germany because of the Turkish threat.


    When the Greek people realized at the beginning that the debts weren't sustainable, the media reporters were sent to the CIA and Soros' seminars in Washington, to teach them how to convince the people that they were.

    Look, I'm not going to stick up or the Greeks, because I was there before the crises hit, and considering their attitude, they kind of deserved it - but not the civil servants who couldn't buy medicines and food for their families and were committing suicide. In the mean time, those living in million dollar homes and reporting incomes that wouldn't be enough to pay their electric bills, their money is well and intact in Switzerland.
     
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  17. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Turkey throws a lot of money into lobbying and propaganda, but here are the facts.

    The land Turkey has today, was to be divided in the Treaty of Sevres after WWI, and given to the people living on the lands. Greece was to get their historic lands along the Aegean and Black Sea. The bickering though between the allies kept the treaty from being signed, and this gave Attaturk time to regroup his men.

    When his army advanced towards the Aegean he began ethnically cleansing the Greek, Christian Assyrians and Armenian population.. When they reached Smyrna (Izmir), his men began burning the Armenian and Greek sections, and pushing the people into the sea. Attaturk realized the Greeks might start killing the Turks in Greece, so he signed the Treaty of Lausanne. According to the Treaty 2 million Greeks would move to Greece and half a million Turks would move to Turkey.

    The Treaty also stipulated that the Greeks in Constantinople (Istanbul) were to remain there, and 25 thousand Turks would remain in Thrace. With the problems in Cyprus later on, the Turks reneged on the Treaty and started a pogrom to ethnically cleanse the Greeks from Constantinople. They destroyed their business', raped etc., to force the Greeks to leave, which they did. Yet today Thrace has over 100 thousand Turks and Turkey is claiming it together with the islands.

    As for Cyprus, Britain promised it to Greece after WWI and again after WWII. Greece though was in a civil war with the communists, so Britain reneged on its promise fearing that Greece wasn't stable enough. When Greece brought it to the UN later on, Britain aroused the 11% Turkish population to object. Britain then did what Britain usually does, and formed trade deals with Cyprus so that their economy would prosper when they gave them their independence, and they wouldn't want to unite with a less prosperous Greece.

    When a para military from Greece tried to ethnically cleanse the Turks the way the Turks always did, Turkey used it to invade and occupy 1/3 of Cyprus. It's not easy to get on islands,, and had it not been for Kissinger they would never have been able to. Nixon was being impeached at the time, so Washington was under his control and Echevit was Kissinger's former student. So there was a connection. He warned the Greek government not to dare intervene and to allow them to invade.

    When Turkey invaded Cyprus, the people ran to the other side of the island and whoever remained was killed. Turkey occupied over one third of the wealthiest part of the island, and the homes were given to Turks from the mainland. The owners were never compensated.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  18. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I detect an intensive lack of consciousness when you refer to Turkey's initial presence on Cyprus as an “invasion” yet totally and completely avoid mentioning the Greek invasion (let's not beat about the bush) of Cyrpus against which Turkey rushed in to thwart. Turkey came to Cyprus for very good reasons.

    On a personal note, in the mid-1980's I was in both the south and the north, crossing the green line of Nicosia, and whatever political/historical feelings you have on the issue, the TC's identified themselves to be Cypriots while the GC's identified themselves to be Greeks, not Cypriots. In other words, the Greek Cypriots were never really keen on cooperating with the Turkish Cypriots for the well-being of a national identity of Cyprus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  19. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    It's factually wrong that Italy asked Germany for help and Germany refused. Italy asked the EU for help and, at first, didn't receive what they considered enough help. Fortunately, in the meantime, Russia, Cuba, Germany, China, et al have sent help.
    It's also factually wrong that Constantinople had more universities than the whole of Europe, a three minute search is all it takes. At the time the city was conquered, there were more than 60 universities in Europe, Constantinople had one, and several academies that could be considered universities. Given the fact that every university has at least one library, it's also factally wrong that Constantinople had more libraries than the whole of Europe.
    Why do some people have to lie so much?
     
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  20. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    You can complain all you want about the Turks.
    Fact is. The Greeks, Cypriots and the Turks signed an agreement about Cyprus. And that agreement demands a lot of things. Among thins is that Greece is not allowed to incorporate Cyprus into their country, and if they do attempt it.... than Turkey is allowed to counter it. And so it happened. Turkey is in it's full rights, when the Greeks invaded Cyprus and together with the Greek Cypriots started to ethnically cleanse the Turkish Cypriots.

    Turkey and Turkish Cypriots also had good plans to solve the issue. The EU agreed with those plans, the Greek Cypriot politicians agreed with those plans. The Greek Cypriots themselves said no. So you know... the blame is again on them that it is how it is.

    But it's easier to put the blame on a brown Muslim.
    I know.
     
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  21. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    That's not true. Greece's debt is the debt of Greece. It's their sovereign right to have one, and make it bigger or smaller. Greece is also the one who is able to declare if they are bankrupt or not. It's all up to them. Germany is not there to just give away their tax money to Greece. You're really out of line to think this is how the world must work.

    Greece accepted out of their own free will the plan from the EU to save their economy without a bankruptcy. They didn't want to go bankrupt. Because you know... loads of people in their late 50's were enjoying their retirement plans. They didn't want to have them people work an other decade like they do in Germany. You go tell me why a German age 63 pays taxes to Greek who retires at 58 and doesn't have the money to retire. You're really so far out of line.
     
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  22. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Turkic tribes are not brown Muslims and they're hated by most Arabs. The Turkic tribes are very closely related to the Huns and more distantly to the Mongolians. Very little of their DNA is Turkish since they enslaved Greeks, Iranians, Slavs, Armenians and Russians. Their culture though remains Turkish with the added component of Islam. They consider themselves the sword of Islam.
     
  23. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    Bla bla bla.
    You contest nothing about that the Greek invaded the island and together with the Greek Cypriots started to ethnically cleanse Cyprus... hence Turkey was in it's full rights to take counter steps. So sorry them Christian war criminals lost the war from brown Muslims.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
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  24. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Follow the personal agenda trail and it usually leads you straight to the answer of that question of yours.
    ........................................
    ........................
    Now, this is why I signed on to a discussion forum > > > because occasionally the truth comes out and I like to be there when it does.
     
  25. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Germany never gave its tax money to Greece, the money was a loan and the money earned from the interest ended up a financial gain for Germany. Germany made money from it, they didn't lose a penny. Also the only part of the loan that did go back to Germany to pay the interest, went to Germany to buy subs and other arms as protection from the constant Turkish threat.

    Yet the Greeks worked more hours than any country in Europe - including Germany, so all that about the Greeks not working is a bunch of hog wash. The problem was that industries closed when they entered the EU, and work didn't exist so other than the shipping companies, they worked for the government, or depended on the political party in power to give them accounts. In either case, 5 people were doing the jobs that one person could have done.

    As for going bankrupt, it was because the banks were giving mortgages without any collateral. When I bought my pied a terre in Athens and decided to apply for a mortgage, the banker said I didn't have to pay anything, and that they would cover the whole amount without collateral. This was at a time when the apartments in Greece were the most expensive in the EU. So what they were doing, was handing out an unlimited amount of credit to people who consider gambling and taking risks a way of life. That would be like giving Russians an unlimited amount Vodka.

    As for bankruptcy, if they pulled out of the eurozone and declared bankruptcy, they would not have been allowed to re-enter. Now Athens is complaining that Russia and China refused to help them, which Moscow says is a bunch garbage and that Athens never asked for help. But the latest revelations from Veroufakis, who was Greece's financial minister at the time, tells why.

    Veroufakis has now released the papers showing the threats he was getting during his conversations with Dijsselbloem, the head of the eurozone’s finance ministers. Paying back the banks was more important to Dijsselbloem and to Germany than the welfare of a member country in the EU. Then again, Germany has also refused to help Italy with the epidemic, so Russia is now sending them ten cargo planes to help them out, as well as doctors and medical experts.

    So much for the EU.
     

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