Why doesn't socialism work?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Le Chef, Feb 25, 2020.

  1. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    And yet the US collects less tax as a % of GDP than most OECD countries....one consequence of which is more of your people become bankrupt for medical reasons ALONE than in any other rich nation....

    Good for you, but note the above: more people become bankrupt in the US for medical reasons than in any other wealthy country.
     
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  2. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    ….yeah, savage capitalism, given that even with Trump's best figures before the pandemic ("lowest unemployment rate -3.5%-since the 60's", the actual involuntary un+underemployment rate (U6), plus those who have given up looking for work and therefore not counted in even the U6 statistics, was likely over 10%, ie recession level underemployment faced by more than 10% 0f the population, permanently.

    'Savage capitalism' is the result, though it is actually the neoliberal economy in which US capitalism is operating that is the problem; eg capitalism in China is managed by the state, to guarantee satisfaction of basic needs.

    Like I said, INVOLUNTARY unemployment in the US is > 10%.

    United States
    "Unemployment is the leading cause of poverty within the US. In 1999 and 2005, 71 percent of the families that were below the poverty line did not have any working family members.

    and

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...our-politics-are-more-unequal-than-elsewhere/

    "in the U.S., about 2.6 million people die every year — and most of those deaths are associated with poverty".


    See above.

    ….. more on your "American classical liberalism":

    https://people.howstuffworks.com/libertarianism4.htm

    Classical Liberalism in America


    [​IMG]

    Early libertarian and "Common Sense" author Thomas Paine wrote:

    "The seeds of libertarianism found fertile ground in the American colonies. The famous pamphleteer Thomas Paine preached a brand of "radical liberalism" that lashed out against the tyranny of the English throne. Paine argued that government, far from being a helpful protector of society, is actually the enemy of society. In "Common Sense," Paine writes, "... government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one."

    And yet Paine was able to write: "the world is my country, all men are my brethren, and to do good is my religion".

    He obviously would have liked the words in the constitution: "....in order to promote the common welfare..."

    And note the reference to the "tyranny of the English throne".

    Classical Liberalism turns out to be an over-reaction against the Divine Right of Kings (finally swept away in the French revolution); government of some kind is of course necessary, to avoid anarchy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  3. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    It really doesn't matter what one book says, so I'm not sure why you seem focused in that way.
     
  4. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome.
     
  5. wist43

    wist43 Banned

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    It's not just one book. There are many good books that expose what the Robber Barons did, and why.

    I just point to Quigley because he was an Establishment insider; and, as I said his book was never intended for mass distribution.

    It is an extremely detailed expose' of what happened. 1100 pages long, it is an undertaking to read.

    You're older and taught the Establishment line for years though... so, cant teach an old dog new tricks ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  6. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    Are you unable to read or research? Unbelievable....the German economy had recovered by 1925 and only went back into depression because of the GOP corrupt world depression.
     
  7. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    What is the nature of the audit?
    No, they weren't. Not even close.
    The average guy never had a clue.
    ??? The Constitution was a solution to a problem.
    So, you think central bankers are more important than major corporations like Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, General Motors, Exxon, Boeing, etc? I don't.
    What industries did they take over? Which Justices changed SCOTUS and how?
    "Confiscated wages?" Income taxes?

    One thing all of us have to accept is that government will be a larger player in our lives. 150 years ago we lived on farms, today we live in cities. My wife and I lived across the street from a dairy farm. We could hear a car coming down the road from more than a mile away. Nobody much cares what you do out in the sticks.
    We keep inflation in check these days.

    181A332A-ED3D-47CE-A48A-C03A81420E05.png
     
  8. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    The robber barons were in the late 1800s. Rockefeller frick Jay Gould etc etc. You're just spreading the usual GOP conspiracy theories to distract from their corruption and incompetence.
     
  9. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    I am happily retired and I worry about the country and my fellow citizens who are being screwed over by the GOP forever.... But certainly worse since Reagan.
     
  10. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    Because we are civilized. Unlike you. I have no problem with our treatment of the pooraccepting scumbag red states that do not have Medicaid for them. Our problem is that we do not tax the rich and giant corporations enough so we do not have enough money to invest in infrastructure and our citizens. That's how we got the worst inequality and upward mobility ever and anywhere in the modern world by far. Only GOP misinformation makes this mess possible. Yes yes the truth is repetitive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  11. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    Google the only tax graph you need to know and stop being misinformed. And obsessed with the Federal income tax LOL
     
  12. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    There was no corrupt GOP world recession there was a world wide depression yes. But it wasn't the republican's fault. If fault must be assessed it was the final death knell of the mercantilist idea that colonies who could only trade with the Homeland was the ultimate economic boon. It wasn't. It was a disaster waiting to happen and in 1929 it did.
     
  13. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    Yes I'm sure being able to buy stocks with only 10% of the money had nothing to do with it! every time the GOP has eight years in power they have another corrupt bubble and bust. Wake up and smell the coffee. C 1929 1989 2008 and 2023 I would guess if Trump is re-elected.... Eisenhower was a independent and we had no competition.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  14. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely had nothing to do with it it. That had been the model ever since the London stock exchange decades earlier. It certainly didn't cause it though it may have made it a lot harder on the individual stock buyer when the call came in. But it certainly didn't cause it.
     
  15. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's a federal issue I don't care what your state does, we don't set federal tax rates according to what states and counties and cities tax and I posted the break down, run away if you want or actually comment on it.

    [​IMG]

    If that is not fair what would be. How much more of the federal tax burden should the higher income groups pay and how much less should the lower income groups pay?
     
  16. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    That is the mark of civilization? In all the history of the United States we have never been civilized? Why should Joe the plumber who makes $50,000 finance the education of someone who will make $150,000 and probably a million dollars more than him during their lifetime? And I'm glad you have no problem with the states who have a disproportionate share of the demographic which disproportionately receives government welfare..............and BTW that demographic votes over 90% Blue, so what exactly is your point about Red and Blue?

    And again explain how other people having lots more money that you has specifically affect you other than creating so jealousy and envy and therefore you want their money.

    And remember Obama's stimulus to rebuild our infrastructure and the massive debt he piled on? How'd that work out. I can bet you don't support Trump's infrastructure plans.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    ALL collectivism (ie socialism and communism .. which are both collectivism) is predicated on the premise that you must work if you want to eat.

    If you think it isn't, then it's you who has it woefully wrong. What you're championing is capitalist largess. It has NOTHING to do with the brutal realities of collectivism.
     
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    If you're worried about your fellow citizens, why aren't you out there motivating them to regain the lost work ethic?

    Change must come from the ground up. If you think otherwise, then you are no champion of the people.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  19. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    It was part of it for sure. And it was a recent deregulation. Sound familiar?
     
  20. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    GREAT we keep more capital in the private sector where it is invested and is productive and creates jobs and more tax payers. A government doesn't have a certain claim to a certain amount of the GDP. The goal should be as it is with conservative fiscal policies is to grow the economy FASTER than the government so we continually take less of the GDP out of the economy. That's what happened when Gingrich and Kasich cut tax rates, the economy bloomed and we hit a 10% increase in tax revenues which helped balance the budget with their spending restraint. And then again during the 2001 recession and again the economy took off and we hit a record 15% tax revenue increase and the Republican brought the deficit down to a measly $161B. Then the Democrats took back control and applied their demand side, trickle up, policies and it was a disaster.



    Few people go bankrupt here BECAUSE of medical expenses and those that do go bankrupt INCLUDING medical expenses have little if any assets to lose anyway and lots of other debt with little income it is merely to get them out of the debt. The more accurate studies say medical expenses contribute to about 17% of personal bankruptcy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  21. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Deregulation??? Dude there was scarcely any financial regulation of financial institutions of that sort at all in 1929. As for deregulation leading to the great recession that to us horse crap the only regulation removed was Glass steagle which was bank specific anti trust regs that had nothing whatever to do with the problems that lead to the weaknesses in the housing industry that collapsed much of the banking industry.
     
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  22. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and precious few of them go off into central banker conspiracy theories.
    Exactly what of value is in the book?
    I taught "the Establishment line?" :roflol:
     
  23. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    No that was all about GOP crony corrupt oversight of the real estate industry. Anybody could get a mortgage LOL quite a joke and toxic mortgages at that. Bush's big oil big pharma big health regulators were also a crony corrupt joke. The GOP is the swamp. Especially since Reagan and the propaganda machine. A give away to the rich and a screw job for everyone else
     
  24. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    That is what I was saying about socialism but I don't know what he's talking about. GOP conspiracy theories .....
     
  25. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    We have these crappy GOP jobs these days and very expensive college and training Great job. People didn't change, the GOP wrecked the middle class and our infrastructure. All to save the rich
     

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