Navy expected to relieve captain who raised alarm about COVID-19 outbreak on aircraft carrier

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by Andrew Jackson, Apr 2, 2020.

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  1. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    1000 crew were removed from the TR. Is it suitable to staff an aircraft carrier with sick sailors?
     
  2. Alchemist

    Alchemist Well-Known Member

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    This statement sounds like something you would hear from a communist police state.

    The things about being the most powerful nation in the world, you don't have to worry about what the enemy countries think of you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  3. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Is it suitable to alert our enemies?
     
  4. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's what you hear from the only superpower military force that is committed to protect the free world. It's not what they think of us it's what they KNOW or our readiness and capability. The Captain violated national security and lost the trust of his commanding officers..........................you're gone.
     
  5. lemmiwinx

    lemmiwinx Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The sainted captain allowed his guys shore leave even though he knew of the threat. His going public with the fleet readiness shows panic and a lack of command control and that deserves him to be relieved.

    Period.
     
  6. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You think national security only applies when we have declared war? Jesus.

    And YES a commanding officer's first duty is to the role and the mission, yes men get sacrificed in war, this isn't the garden club. The purpose of a commander is not to represent and stand up for his men before high command it is the mission assigned. He job is to carry out the orders of that higher command and protect classified information about the status and readiness of his command. If we have two carrier battle fleets in a patrol area where our presence is necessary and both start having infections show up yes one of them may have to stay on station and yes some sailors may suffer for it, that is their role. It is not the role of the captain of the ship to object it is his role to carry out his orders and his mission.
     
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  7. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    It affects our national security when commanders of ships, infantry, air wings, missile groups announce the current readiness of there commands to our enemies.
     
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  8. Alchemist

    Alchemist Well-Known Member

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    His men were chanting his name when they escorted him off the ship. A entire vessel just lost respect for their leadership.
     
  9. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    So what, he was popular.

    So was Hitler, Himmler, and Stalin. That does not mean they were great commanders.

    What, you think the military is a popularity contest?

    I have heard them chanting the name of the President also, does that mean he is a great leader, and anybody that "opposes" him does not deserve respect?

    There is a reason why I say I dispose political minded civilians.
     
  10. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Having done my short time in the US Army during the Vietnam fiasco, I do understand your points here. And in a time of honest government, all your points are valid.

    The trouble is we are not living in a time of honest government. We are living in a time of dishonest government practicing military aggression across the globe. We are living in a time almost 20 years after Congress abdicated its constitutional duties by way of the AUMF.

    So my point is the term "national security" has very little real meaning anymore. With so much secrecy, compartmentalization, classification and deception, the term "national security" has become a sort of deception by itself. With idiots like Pompeo, Brennan, Bolton and so many others running the show, our actions over years have shown us to certainly hold the moral low ground.

    Captain Crozier holds the moral high ground, and it's so very refreshing for this old man to see it.
     
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  11. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Actually it showed he was not a proper commander and a breakdown in the chain of command.
     
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  12. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I disagree. America has been operating like this for the past half century or more. American military aggression around the world is basically part of America's global defense strategy and this is by no means unique to this current Administration. Did we hold the moral low ground during The Korean War? Vietnam? The Cold War? Panama? Desert Storm? Bosnia? Iraq v2? Afghanistan?

    This is nowhere near a current Administration sort of thing this is standard operating procedure regarding US Foreign Policy. This has pretty much nothing to do with Foreign Policy anyway, I highly doubt that Captain Crozier was sitting there thinking that his Carrier was part of some immoral Foreign Policy and did this to fight back. This was simply a Commanding Officer concerned with the welfare of his men during a pandemic and acted accordingly.

    This is a problem throughout all branches of the military throughout all echelons of Command. The lower on the totem pole you are as a Commander the more your subordinate troops matter to you on a personal level. I see this every day with LT's butting heads with Captains, Captains butting heads against Battalion, Battalion butting heads against Brigade, etc. The reason is because even at the Company level it's the LT's who are hands on with the troops more so than the Company Commander and so on and so forth. We hear the term "big picture" all the time but the "big picture" matters more the higher up the totem pole you go, your actual troops matter more the lower on the totem pole you are. It's not hard to see even on a basic level, throughout my entire career I have only had ONE single Company Commander voluntarily take the Company to the field to train when they had nothing else to do. All the other times it's Battalion and Brigade who order you to go into the field. Most Company level Officers, especially LT's, if given white space on a calendar will send their troops home for a 4 day weekend or something instead of deciding to go play in the woods. The reason is because they are closer to the troops than the Colonel and they would rather you go home and relax over going to the field to train because they are more concerned with your morale than the "big picture".

    Who is "correct"? The Battalion Commander who wants his Battalion to train and be as proficient as possible seeing how that's what they pay you for? Or the Company Commander or LT who wants you to go home and spend time with your family because the Army will get it's pound of flesh from you regardless and if you have free time then take advantage of it by going home and relaxing? Neither is "correct" and neither is "incorrect", they just have different priorities regarding their subordinates based on their rank and position.

    We had the same internal fight in my neck of the woods last week. Based on such a lackluster response to this pandemic quite a few of us had to have some very blunt conversations with Commanders about this. Some of us were way more vocal than others such as my buddy who basically went off on a Commander which in turn required me to go into the office and try to calm all of this down. My buddy wasn't "wrong" for going off on the Commander, he's worried about the welfare of his subordinates and co-workers. The Commander wasn't "wrong" for not just sending everybody home at first and closing up shop to protect us all either. Different priorities for different positions. The Commander does care about his men, but he also has a mission to accomplish and higher levels of Command to answer to. My buddy doesn't have to concern himself with any of that, nor does he care about the "mission" or the higher level Commanders, he wanted us to be sent home and damn the rest of that.

    This Naval scenario is the same thing. Big Navy and the DoD is concerned about it's Carrier Strike Groups, the backbone of American global military response and power. The subordinate Commanders who actually Command these individual ships within the Navy care more about their individual Sailors than "American global response". Neither or them are right or wrong for concerning themselves with these things.
     
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  13. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Perhaps only in a war like ww2 .

    The mistake was making his situation public thereby informing our enemies . I still cant believe the ships captain had such poor judgement ! How did he ever make it to his meritorious position ? These men are the creme of the crop !

    At least they allowed him to stay in the usn. Although I bet he retires early. I always had the gteatest respect for a ships captain! Almost as much as I have for a chief petty officer! ! The backbone of the navy and who can leap tall buildings and faster than a speeding bullet !
     
  14. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Biden said the treatment of the captain has been close to criminal

    https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday...s-navy-firing-of-captain-is-close-to-criminal

    He just disqualified himself from being Commander in Chief.
     
  15. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think the enemy is pretty well aware of what is happening. Nothing is secret any more.
     
  16. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree! Due to modern tech. Yet the old loose lips sink ships is institutionalized in our armed forces. In the 60s the top speed of our nuclear powered subs were known by the ussr but yet classified. If that top speed was made public by anyone in the navy he would be in deep whale dodo!
     
  17. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Imo Biden is just too compromised mentally to hold that office. And since tulsi is out and hated by the party Clinton created, instead of voting 3rd party this time , Trump will get a tulsi/sanders supporter's vote

    I dont care for his personality but by George you know who the man is with his many flaws and ugly warts.

    And overall he is the best president on issues that I have seen since jfk. And I agreed with his platform that won him that office in 16 . I wish he could get accomplished what he wants to do. For it would benefit most people and cure these multiple illnesses that plague our country and created by both parties .

    I believe trump wants to fix what is broke and fix it for Americans . He isnt an ideologue but is more pragmatic than any president since fdr.

    Of course I dont agree with everything he has done and should have followed the advice of steve bannon, one of a scant number of repubs who care about our regular American and their economic interests .
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but the father of a guy who got kicked out of the Navy after a month for cocaine use is not exactly somebody I am going to take seriously on Naval affairs. He is a politician, and I rarely take them very seriously on military matters.
     
  19. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I can't stand Trump personally and one reason I didn't vote for him. But I will this time because I support his policies and see no one on the Democrat side. Biden has no principles he is a man of whichever way the wind is blowing as we see here. What Biden is saying here is that were he President he would be stepping in and countermanding Cincpac and the fleet admiral, calling their proper orders "almost criminal" and supporting a Captain who released the status of the force he commands to our enemies and went outside the chain of command losing the confidence of his commanders. I think he would have a mass revolt and resignations at the highest level.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
  20. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You aren't serious you believe it proper for a commander to inform our enemies the readiness status of those forces he command. Heck why don't we just let China and Russia sit in on the meetings of the JCS?
     
  21. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Do you really think they don’t know what’s going on?
     
  22. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And it is even more than that.

    He made an unauthorized press release, and was largely screaming that "more had to be done", and not providing any solutions. Essentially he was acting like an idiot.

    And here is the letter, since I am sure most have not even read it.

    https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Exclusive-Captain-of-aircraft-carrier-with-15167883.php#

    In short, it seems like to me he was not happy that the Guam Naval Station was not providing facilities fast enough for him, and he thought that jumping straight up the chain of command would somehow make things go faster. And among his largest complaints are the very things that are pretty much required when one lives in the military.

    Sharing bathrooms, eating meals in large joined chow halls, having to share rooms with somebody else, and it goes on and on. His letter was foolish, and was nothing but bitching without offering any suggestion other than put up everybody in private rooms. And he wanted it done immediately.

    Yea, the guy had to go. Either that, or the way we handle the entire military is wrong and must be changed immediately. Is anybody in here ready for a massive increase in military spending to give everybody in uniform their own private room, bathroom, and kitchen? Because it seems that this is what he wants.
     
  23. Labouroflove

    Labouroflove Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "I am entirely convinced that your commanding officer loves you and that he had you at the center of his heart in mind and every decision that he has made," Modly said. "I also know that you have great affection and love for him as well, but it's my responsibility to ensure that his love and concern for you is matched, if not exceeded by, his sober and professional judgment under pressure."

    https://www.military.com/daily-news...er-fired-over-plea-resources-went-public.html

    Interesting word choice by Secretary Modly. Not an uncommon word used in the context of describing character dictates of command. Here, in prepared text, concerning a Captain being relieved of command, syntax was deliberate and proofed by others.

    There's more to Capt. Crozier's story.
     
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  24. Dispondent

    Dispondent Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He did test positive for the virus. If he even suspected he had it prior to the memo, knowing full well the fallout, he abandoned his crew to save himself...
     
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  25. Labouroflove

    Labouroflove Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Susceptibility of Coronavirus is 50%. Infected but asymptomatic rate is 50%.

    75% of the crew would be ready and able at the contagion's apex. 15% would suffer minor symptoms.

    The 10% that might require observation and treatment could have been initially treated on board in TR's Hospital then moved to a Hospital ashore.
     
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