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Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by CourtJester, Mar 20, 2020.

  1. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    sure, if you completely ignore the actual definition of atheism, and make up your own, this would be true. But back here in reality, atheism means the lack of belief in a god or gods. I lack belief in a god or gods and therefore am by definition, an atheist.
     
  2. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    this has all been proven false. I've provided the actual definition of atheist. If you keep claiming that I am not, you are intentionally lying.
     
  3. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I think you have an odd definition of what a belief in something is. It seems to me, a negative belief in something, is not a subset of belief in that something. I.e. if I say "Santa doesn't exist", that's a belief about Santa, but I wouldn't say it is a belief *in* Santa.

    Would you call all Muslims "believers in Christianity", because they have a "negative belief" in Christianity?
    Do you think Christians who say "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth" are merely informing you that they have an opinion on the subject, but not quite what that opinion is?
    When someone says they don't believe in Santa, do you understand them to mean that they've never even considered the idea of Santa?

    Very well, if you are resolved to use that definition, I suppose rahl's definition of atheism would be something like "lacks the positive belief in the existence of God".
     
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  4. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    fantastic!

    I posted the actual definition of atheism for you

    You have been shown that atheism means:


    if I lack gas in the tank how much gas is in the tank?


    lack
    ‌‌‌

    noun singular/uncountable
    1. 1
      a situation in which you do not have any, or enough, of something that you need or want
    2. lack of:

      for lack of something:
      The court case was dismissed for lack of evidence.
      https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/lack_1
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  5. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    nope...................

    atheism
    noun



    athe·ism | \ ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm \
    Definition of atheism


    1a : a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

    Atheism by definition is not a religion, or a belief. In the exact same way not playing baseball isn't a sport or hobby.
     
  6. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    You have been shown many times that the actual definition of atheism is disbelief in God.

    clearly you can see from the definition of atheism that I posted that disbelief in the existence of God is actual definition. You are required to disbelieve the existence of God to be atheist

    Seems you got a problem, by definition you cant be an atheist if you dont disbelieve in the existence of God.

    atheism
    [ ey-thee-iz-uh m ]

    noun

    the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
    disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/atheism


    atheism by definition is the disbelief in the existence of God, just like water is wet.

    rahl, If I lack gas in my gas tank how much gas is in the tank?:D
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  7. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    nope......................

    atheism
    noun



    athe·ism | \ ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm \
    Definition of atheism


    1a : a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

    Atheism by definition is not a religion, or a belief. In the exact same way not playing baseball isn't a sport or hobby.
     
  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    WTF?

    rahl:

    So you are claiming this is not the definition of atheism? In front off all these witnesses?

    Seriously?

    atheism
    [ ey-thee-iz-uh m ]

    noun
    the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
    disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/atheism


    Its cited right out of the dictionary, what more proof does anyone need?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Need More?

    ATHEISM


    References

    1.)

    The theory or belief that God does not exist. The word comes (in the late 16th century, via French) from Greek atheos, from a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.
    https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095431374

    2.)
    The Historic Usage of Atheism
    Atheism, from the Greek a-theos („no-god”), is the philosophical position that God doesn’t exist.

    3.)
    Atheism, system of thought developed around the denial of God’s existence. Atheism, so defined, first appeared during the Enlightenment, the age of reason (Random House Encyclopedia-1977).

    4.)
    Atheism is the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments, but these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, and are largely irrelevant to other possible gods (Oxford Companion to Philosophy-1995).

    5.)
    Atheism is disbelief in God (Introduction to Philosophy
    , Perry and Bratman, Oxford University Press-1986).

    6.)

    Atheism from the Greek a (not) plus theos (god). The doctrine of disbelief in a supreme being (Dictionary of Philosophy and Religion, William Reese, HumanitiesPress-1996).

    7.)

    Atheism (Greek, a- [private prefix] + theos, god) is the view that there is no divine being, no God (Dictionary of Philosophy, Thomas Mautner, Editor-1996).

    8.)

    Atheism is the belief that God doesn’t exist (The World Book Encyclopedia-1991).

    9.)

    Atheism, Greek atheos-Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of God (Oxford English Dictionary-1989)

    10.)

    Atheism, commonly speaking, is the denial of God. Theism (from the Greek theos, God) is belief in or conceptualization of God, atheism is the rejection of such belief or conceptualization.In the ancient world atheism was rarely a clearly formulated position (Encyclopedia Americana-1990).

    11.)

    Atheism, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. Atheism is to be distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open whether there is a god or not, professing to find the question unanswerable, for the atheist, the non-existence of god is a certainty (The New Encyclopedia Britannia-1993).

    12.)

    According to the most usual definition, an atheist is a person who maintains that there is no god…(rejects eccentric definitions of the word) (The Encyclopedia of Philosophy-1967).

    13.)

    Atheism is the doctrine that God does not exist, that belief in the existence of God is a false belief. The word God here refers to a divine being regarded as the independent creator of the world, a being superlatively powerful, wise and good (Encyclopedia of Religion-1987).

    14.)

    Atheism (from the Greek a-, not, and theos, god) is the view that there are no gods. A widely used sense denotes merely not believing in God and is consistent with agnosticism. A stricter sense denotes a belief that there is no God, the use has become the standard one (Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy-1995).

    15.)

    Atheism (Greek and Roman): Atheism is a dogmatic creed, consisting in the denial of every kind of supernatural power. Atheism has not often been seriously maintained at any period of civilized thought (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics-Vol II).

    16.)

    Przeczytaj jeszcze Fast Cut and Paste Information onlinem: Atheism, Relativism,
    Atheism denies the existence of deity (Funk and Wagnall’s New Encyclopedia-Vol I). http://apologetyka.org/atheism-etymology


    I have confidence this the definition of atheism:

    atheism
    [ ey-thee-iz-uh m ]

    noun
    the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
    disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/atheism


    Is the 'ACTUAL' definition of atheism.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  10. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I admit that what I what I described is a agnostic, I don't think I have "admitted" that that means he can't be an atheist. This is really nothing new compared to what's happened in your other thread.

    But yes, you may be right in that I have worded myself poorly (the sentence was a continuation of the previous clause laying out what rah might believe, rather than what he does believe). I would rephrase it as:

    "If I understand it correctly, rahl isn't saying that atheism is the lack of any belief vaguely in the vicinity of gods (for instance, rahl might believe the statement "arguments about God have proven unpersuasive"), rahl is saying that none of the beliefs any atheist holds count as the belief in God." (changes underlined, original here)

    I do not know what rahl believes (if you go through the posts that I have quoted, you will find that in the posts I have read, he has not stated anything that he does believe). If you read from the post something about rahl's beliefs, there is a mistake somewhere. In this case, the mistake was mine.

    Certainly, this doesn't seem to lead anywhere that the other thread hasn't already discussed.

    What makes one into an atheist is to fulfil the definition of an atheist (as with any word) and the lack of belief is a common enough definition.
     
  11. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    nope......................

    atheism
    noun



    athe·ism | \ ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm \
    Definition of atheism


    1a : a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

    Atheism by definition is not a religion, or a belief. In the exact same way not playing baseball isn't a sport or hobby.
     
  12. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    irrelevant, yo made a call and you were correct.
    True, I proved that 'lack of belief' is a fallacy several ways, the most conclusive illustrating the violation of LEM

    and you have the audacity and gall to post that bullshit immediately after the post that proves otherwise?


    ATHEISM

    References

    1.)

    The theory or belief that God does not exist. The word comes (in the late 16th century, via French) from Greek atheos, from a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.
    https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095431374

    2.)
    The Historic Usage of Atheism
    Atheism, from the Greek a-theos („no-god”), is the philosophical position that God doesn’t exist.

    3.)
    Atheism, system of thought developed around the denial of God’s existence. Atheism, so defined, first appeared during the Enlightenment, the age of reason (Random House Encyclopedia-1977).

    4.)
    Atheism is the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments, but these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, and are largely irrelevant to other possible gods (Oxford Companion to Philosophy-1995).

    5.)
    Atheism is disbelief in God (Introduction to Philosophy
    , Perry and Bratman, Oxford University Press-1986).

    6.)

    Atheism from the Greek a (not) plus theos (god). The doctrine of disbelief in a supreme being (Dictionary of Philosophy and Religion, William Reese, HumanitiesPress-1996).

    7.)

    Atheism (Greek, a- [private prefix] + theos, god) is the view that there is no divine being, no God (Dictionary of Philosophy, Thomas Mautner, Editor-1996).

    8.)

    Atheism is the belief that God doesn’t exist (The World Book Encyclopedia-1991).

    9.)

    Atheism, Greek atheos-Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of God (Oxford English Dictionary-1989)

    10.)

    Atheism, commonly speaking, is the denial of God. Theism (from the Greek theos, God) is belief in or conceptualization of God, atheism is the rejection of such belief or conceptualization.In the ancient world atheism was rarely a clearly formulated position (Encyclopedia Americana-1990).

    11.)

    Atheism, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. Atheism is to be distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open whether there is a god or not, professing to find the question unanswerable, for the atheist, the non-existence of god is a certainty (The New Encyclopedia Britannia-1993).

    12.)

    According to the most usual definition, an atheist is a person who maintains that there is no god…(rejects eccentric definitions of the word) (The Encyclopedia of Philosophy-1967).

    13.)

    Atheism is the doctrine that God does not exist, that belief in the existence of God is a false belief. The word God here refers to a divine being regarded as the independent creator of the world, a being superlatively powerful, wise and good (Encyclopedia of Religion-1987).

    14.)

    Atheism (from the Greek a-, not, and theos, god) is the view that there are no gods. A widely used sense denotes merely not believing in God and is consistent with agnosticism. A stricter sense denotes a belief that there is no God, the use has become the standard one (Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy-1995).

    15.)

    Atheism (Greek and Roman): Atheism is a dogmatic creed, consisting in the denial of every kind of supernatural power. Atheism has not often been seriously maintained at any period of civilized thought (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics-Vol II).

    16.)

    Przeczytaj jeszcze Fast Cut and Paste Information onlinem: Atheism, Relativism,
    Atheism denies the existence of deity (Funk and Wagnall’s New Encyclopedia-Vol I). http://apologetyka.org/atheism-etymology


    I have confidence this the definition of atheism:

    atheism
    [ ey-thee-iz-uh m ]

    noun
    the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
    disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/atheism


    Is the 'ACTUAL' definition of atheism.


    your up next to be written off as not able to take seriously.

    rahls whole defense rests on his 'faulty interpretation' of atheism, not logic, not reason, not fact, not rational thinking. He has not been able to debate the matter beyond throwing out a dictionary definition which we all know expresses popular usage present day, not an academic real (root) meaning. (your playground too)

    I have to laugh the one thing I agreed with you on, you are now backpedaling! :lol:
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  13. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Since you are working things backwards, indeed you are. I've already proven this.
     
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  14. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    I am fully accepting your definition that atheism means a lack of belief. It is that definition that proves you are not an atheist because you do not lack a belief. You have a belief in the non existence of gods or a belief that there is insufficient evidence. Either is still a belief. Now if you want to show a definition that atheist is one who believes there are no gods, then you would most likely be one under that definition. But under the one you gave, you are not.
     
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  15. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    You are intentionally lying about your lack of belief. You cannot possess such a lack because you have been exposed to the concept of gods. Therefore you either believe in the existence of at least one god, believe that no gods exist, or believe there is insufficient evidence to believe the other two. There are no other options. You cannot be exposed to an idea without forming a belief about it. Having been corrected, every time you claim to lack belief, you are lying.
     
  16. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    except by definition, I am not wrong. That will not stop being true. I'm sorry you don't like that or agree with it. But neither reality, or myself give a **** if you like it.
     
  17. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    having been corrected on this numerous times now, you are now intentionally lying.
    .
    nope, I lack belief in the existence of a god or gods. That is not an active belief. That is not a belief at all. That is the opposite of belief.
    .
    not according to the English language.
    having been corrected on this numerous times, you are no intentionally lying.
     
  18. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    reality disagrees, as the definition shows.
    Or I can go with the actual definition, which is lack of belief in a god or gods. I am an atheist by definition. Atheism, by definition, is not a belief.
     
  19. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    By definition you are indeed wrong, proven repeatedly, which means you are resorting to lying now. The multiple references to the definition of atheism presented shows that you are wrong and lying. "All other references are wrong! Only mine counts!" Your lack of agreement with 16 different academic references does not change reality. You hold a belief. You do not lack one. You cannot be an atheist.
     
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  20. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    and I agreed this would be true, if you completely ignore the actual definition and just make up your own. Since we know the definition, and we know that I lack belief in a god, you are lying about my position. You will be reported shortly if you do not stop.
    not according to the actual definition of atheism, which is lack of belief in a god or gods.
    by definition, atheism is not a belief. By definition, I am an atheist. By definition, I do not hold a belief. Sorry you don't like that, but again, neither myself or reality give a **** what you like or not.
     
  21. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    My objections stand unchallenged in my last unanswered post in that thread (well, they're not all my objections, some of them are meant merely to gather information to formulate my actual objections). I seem to recall your insistence to redefine theism (or rather, your implication that atheists must use a context in which theism has been redefined) is still unwarranted and unjustified.


    You seem to have misunderstood how my argument fits together.

    I argue that atheism have several definitions, Flew's and your included. They are valid in different contexts. Just as I might argue that the fruit and colour definitions of "orange" exist and are valid in different context. Obviously, you could easily find a list of dictionaries which say "orange is a fruit". You can also find historical evidence that "orange is a fruit" has been used historically. However, none of those are good reasons to believe that "orange is a colour" is an invalid definition of "orange". In the same way, finding instances of one definition of atheism doesn't show that other definitions are incorrect.

    I have no problem with the definition provided here, but I imagine you interpret the definitions differently too.

    disbelief
    [ dis-bi-leef ]noun
    the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.
    amazement; astonishment:We stared at the Taj Mahal in disbelief.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/disbelief

    This again seems fully consistent with Flew's definition. Note how the word is defined in terms of whether one accepts it as true, which means an agnostic, who finds neither side convincing, still falls outside of the definition. Only those who pick the side "yes" can be said to believe in that side. People who don't (regardless of whether they pick the side "no" or refuse to believe either side) fall outside it, which we call disbelief.

    I don't see anything wrong with the term, your objections mostly seem faulty, and when pressed for it, you circle around from the top, or drop the conversation altogether.
     
  22. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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  23. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    apparently you did not understand the meaning of my post, there is no such thing as an actual definition of a polysemous word. Thats another one of your made up fantasies.

    If we both have a definition from the dictionary then the actual definition is highly disputable and falls to the definition with the core meaning. You have not attempted to even argue the core meaning of the word much less fantasize about have proved it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  24. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    well, I've proven otherwise by providing the actual definition, with citation.

    Most words have several meanings and definitions. The definition of atheism that reflects me, is the lack of belief in a god or gods. That, by definition is not a religion or a belief. Just like not playing baseball isn't a sport or hobby
     
  25. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    and I have provided the 'actual definition', with a very long list of citations, why in the world would anyone desire to yours when the one I provided is several magnitudes more weighty citations than yours?

    Further you have never explained how you are connected to the definition or how it reflects you?

    No one can come up with a rational conclusion, which is why you get constant static from everyone, so maybe if you explain it that would be a good start to helping people understand your position instead of just throwing a dictionary at them and leaving to their imagination.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020

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