After mocking Trump for promoting hydroxychloroquine, journalists acknowledge it might treat coronav

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by Gatewood, Apr 2, 2020.

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  1. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hoarding is not Trump's fault. Hoarding prescription drugs is already against the law.
     
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  2. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Scientific methodology is not science; it's methodology. Peer review supports theories but doesn't define facts. Do I need a peer reviewed study to know the earth is round?

    Lack of a peer reviewed study doesn't negate the potential benefit of the medication and Trump has never once prescribed it. It is an outright lie when people say he has.
     
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  3. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Medical studies have not one thing to do with consensus. From an efficacy standpoint it is about whether or not that compound achieved a statistically signifcant improvement over placebo. From a safety standpoint (assuming that it is already an FDA approved compound for any purpose) it then becomes about an individual physicians perception as to whether that statistically significant improvement is worth the risk associated with the safety profile that has been revealed.

    Consensus literally does not enter into the equation. If you want to talk about peer review, that is primarily a review of the study design and subsequent data collection techniques and whether or not the technique used is deemed valid. If you insist on consensus, then perhaps you could say that a peer reviewed consensus is necessary to validate the data collection technique, which is altogether a different thing than you are claiming. There is no such thing as a consensus among doctors and treatment decisions. If you ask 100 doctors for their treatment decision protocol (decision tree), you will get 100 different answers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
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  4. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is in fact the drug that worldwide has drawn the most attention from physicians. It would be one thing if he was promoting an over the counter drug that people could go buy themselves, but since it must be prescribed by a doctor, the decision always remains between the physician and the patient. I see not one thing wrong with a President, governor or even a journalist etc. pointing to a legitimate avenue for hope in the face of a seemingly hopeless landscape. It would be one thing if you were talking about an over the counter med that people could go buy themselves, but it is not.

    Doctors are in fact saying that this drug combination seems to work, and not much else has shown a great deal of promise. Trump was not the first person to mention it as an avenue of hope. He is just the first person that has an entire army of haters out there that mentioned it as an avenue of hope. Sincerely, the left's position on this particular topic is truly bizarre. Being that its safety profile is well known since it has been out since the 1930's, and that it appears highly likely that the clinical data will eventually show that it works better than placebo against Covid-19, their position is also short sighted.
     
  5. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    And who the **** are you to claim I did any such thing? Where did you invent that from? I am in no position to tell any doctor anything (other than my own doctor), same as you.

    That's wonderful. So again, what possible relevance does it have to this discussion? Or are you suggesting all peer reviewed studies should be halted and we should just watch monkeys instead?

    No, please read again for comprehension. I said I won't quote the rest because it's a bunch of horse manure. You posted all that on the basis of YOUR erroneous ASSumptions, just like most of the posts you've written so far in response to my posts. Whether I can or can't refute it is irrelevant, there is no reason for me to even address it.
     
  6. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    Really? So the FDA doesn't really exist? How about the CDC? Teams of experts do not review hypotheses and determine their validity and/or efficacy? On what planet are you from?
     
  7. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    So why on earth would they call SCIENTIFIC if it's not science? Are you trying to be funny? I suggest you keep your day job, comedy is not for you.

    It's already been peer reviewed but for you I'm guessing you need to watch monkeys to make sure.
     
  8. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hmm....at no point have I said or implied that the FDA does not exist. At no point have I said or implied that the CDC does not exist. The fact that you are somehow trying to imply that I said such a thing is bizarre.

    A medical study for a drug's efficacy, is solely about whether or not that drug is statistically significantly superior to placebo. The data speaks for the efficacy and it is black or white. It does not require a team of experts to read that data. Any idiot is capable of reading the data to see whether it achieved statistical significance. The only thing that peer review does is to validate that the data collection technique is valid. They are tasked with ensuring that the study design was sound, which in truth, is not all that hard to determine. Your talk of consensus does not come into play in this situation. Consensus is not a part of determining efficacy. You are confused.

    I am from the planet earth and I have presented medical studies for over 20 years. From what planet are you from?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
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  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This is a leadership issue, not a "fault" issue.

    If this were a one time thing it would be reasonable to excuse Trump for failing to think through the obvious ramifications of what he says.

    But, he's doing this kind of thing on a repeated basis. He says masks should be used, but he won't. He says separation is important but issues no leadership on that and says he won't do it. He says this will be over by Easter and we should reopen our economy when medical science says we need to self isolate, beause the worst is yet to come.

    He's right when he recently stated that he's a "cheerleader". But, we have needed leadership.
     
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  10. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Facts are determine by vote! 2+3 only equals 5 if a majority agrees that it equals 5. You clearly slept through "Consensus" indoctrination.

    YEAH BUT WHERE ARE THE GIANT DOUBLE-BLIND STUDIES? Blood from recovered coronavirus victims helps patient come off ventilator in just two days: In trial, 10 severely-ill patients made recoveries after receiving antibodies from people who had successfully fought the Covid-19 virus.
     
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  11. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And again unless there is more evidence we cannot rely on this
     
  12. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Whhooloop!

    Yes sometimes consensus DOES come into play especially where we ethically or otherwise cannot do research. We cannot research medication effects in pregnant women so we go on consensus for guides

    A systematic review is a form of consensus
     
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  13. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hypotheses have or don't have validity and have or don't have consensus but hypotheses don't have efficacy - actual drugs or treatments do.

    How do you get from consensus to existence? No one suggested they don't exist. You're really twisting reality to try to support your political objectives in a reality that so clearly demonstrates you are wrong.
     
  14. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You may not rely on it but others clearly do rely on it. Are you a doctor? Are you treating patients? Are you a patient of the Wuhan virus? Those who are patients or are doctors clearly can rely on it as proven that the clearly DO rely on it.

    When you become a patient, you be sure to tell your doctor not to use it on you until the studies are complete.

    If your close family becomes sick and you're the one who has to make medical choices for them because they're unable to do it for themselves, I hope and pray that you don't take the same response with them as you're taking with the families of those living in NY and other places where these drugs are banned.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think this is all drifting off the real issue.

    I think you should listen to your doctor - even if the president is promoting some other drug for which no scientific test result is available.
     
  16. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    -Consensus is NOT required for a drug's use in pregnant women or children etc. That is expressly an individual decision for every doctor to make, and by no means is there one homogenous opinion among doctors in general. The notion that you would find a consensus on every or even most issues is bereft of reality. I think that the proper way to express what you are trying to convey is to call it a standard of care.

    -A systematic review is absolutely not a form of consensus. It is a systematic review and summation of the available clinical data on a drug or medical procedure etc. It is not uncommon for there to be numerous apparent conflicting studies revealed in a systematic review. In no manner, shape, or form is it a form of consensus. It is merely a recitation of the available data, and in truth, no 2 medical studies are considered comparable. For that reason, systematic reviews are typically relied upon in situations where there really is not a dearth of well validated studies available.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
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  17. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really? Then should I listen to the doctors who told Trump that this drug with no long-term study appeared to be having near miraculous results?

    No one, not one single person, on this forum or, as far as I'm aware, has ever suggested taking medicine because Trump said to. What they have said is that Trump shared some results he got from actual doctors, as compared to Internet trolls and Democrat governors, and that the stories that doctors told to Trump and Trump shared with the world are promising.

    Since no one in the United States can legally obtain hydroxychloroquine without having listened to, and gotten a prescription from, their doctor, then they are listening to their doctor. Trump isn't promoting "some other drug"; he's promoting the drug that actual medical doctors are using and promoting. The hypocrisy runs so very deep among the TDC inflicted in America.

    Just as I said for others, when you or your family get the Wuhan virus, you should skip the hydroxychloroquine but, hopefully, you wouldn't convince your family to skip it, possibly sacrificing their lives, on the altar of your political madness.
     
  18. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just saw a clip today of Joe Biden called it xenophopic. Look for yourself.....you wouldn't believe me anyway.
     
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  19. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The left is changing the facts, pretending he was talking about something else when, on the day Trump announced the ban, Biden made that statement.
     
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  20. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here is CNN "fake news" calling the travel ban xenophobic. The left just shows how truly sorry and un American it is when it takes an unfortunate situation and weaponizes it. Sol Alinsky's Rule For Radicals 101 "Never let a crisis go to waste!"

    "The national emergency and worldwide alerts. The American people need to have a president who they can trust what he says about it. That he is going to act rationally about it. In moments like this, this is where the credibility of a president is most needed, as he explains what we should and should not do. This is no time for Donald Trump's record of hysterical xenophobia and fear mongering to lead the way instead of science,” per CNN.
     
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  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'll do what my doctor deems best for my case - as I would insist for my family as well.

    Trump was trumpeting this solution when there were only a few anecdotal tales and medical science was issuing caution.

    Plus again, this feeds this general message of downplaying the seriousness of this situation - he's not going to wear a mask, he's not going to get tested, he's not going to worry about social distancing, he's not going to issue any policy directive related to best practices that his federal doctors say need to be followed, he's not going to bother to use the Defense Production act, and at the outset he agreed with right wing media that this COVID thing is just a Democratic plot against the president - fake news.
     
  22. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, I see. You'll do what your doctor thinks best but everyone else is not supposed to get that option as Democrat governors ban using medications simply because Trump mentioned them.

    Trump repeated stories from doctors, sharing hopeful, even if anecdotal, stories - from doctors. Medical science was not issuing caution. Anti-Trumpers were issuing denials.

    Virtually everything in your post is a lie..
    • Trump was tested.
    • He used the Defense Production act on GM, even if only as a threat for leverage. By the way, it turns out that hospitalizations, ventilations, and deaths are only around 25% of what the models predicted - and those are the models that DID consider social distancing. So there are many thousands of ventilators today sitting in storerooms.
    • Trump never said that the virus was a Democrat plot. He said that they would create a hoax about his response - and he was right; the left lies about his response at every opportunity - opportunity being defined as their lips are moving and they are awake. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No. Everyone else should do what their doctor prescribes, too. I certainly did not mean that to apply to me alone. Though it IS true that our healthcare system for profit throughout, so those with low incomes get very different healthcare.

    Trump stated that he would not be tested. I know he did in fact get tested after that. His initial point was that he saw little value in these tests he was making NO effort to deliver and which are pretty much NOT available today.

    He told governors he would sign the Defense Production act. He then tweeted that he would not use it until there was an emergency - which there certainly already was. He told the governors to pound sand. And, today we still don't have enough PPE and your claim of peaking isn't supported by national stats. GM was already moving. They didn't need to be threatened by the president. And, so why did he STOP there?

    Trump agreed with Hannity, Trish Reagan and Rushbo who were pitching it as a Democratic plot. And, he STILL has not countered their statements. So, there are plenty of places today which still believe this Republicans lie.

    You have not come up with one single "lie".
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Biden's tweet was:
    "We are in the midst of a crisis with the coronavirus. We need to lead the way with science — not Donald Trump’s record of hysteria, xenophobia, and fear-mongering. He is the worst possible person to lead our country through a global health emergency.”

    Biden also said:
    “Stop the xenophobic fear-mongering. Be honest. Take responsibility. Do your job.” But, that was not in regard to travel restrictions. By calling it the "Chinese virus" Trump was risking the safety of Chinese Americans and implying that China had some sort of responsibility for creating this virus - which is false.


    https://www.statesman.com/news/2020...xenophobicrsquo-for-china-travel-restrictions
     
  25. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    None of those you mentioned said the virus itself was a plot. But the left, including you, are creating hoaxes with the lies about his response.

    Trump never once said he saw little value in testing. He didn't feel like he had a risk so he didn't waste a test. Had he tested sooner the left, and likely you, would have accused him of special access to testing. The United States has tested more people than any country in the world. The United States tests more per day than any country in the world. The United States tests more per day per thousand people than any country except Italy. You're lying when you say that tests are not available today and when you say that Trump wasn't doing all he could to get the tests out.

    No one, not even me, has made a claim of peaking. You're still lying.. or lying again. I said the models are wrong and the actuals are way below the predictions from the model. No one said peaking. There's another lie to go with the other lies.

    And if GM was already moving (they weren't; it's another lie) then just how were you expecting him to use the DPA? Who was he supposed to force to do what against their will?
     
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