A conversation: I like Trump...convince me otherwise.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by MDG045, Apr 10, 2020.

  1. MDG045

    MDG045 Active Member

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    it’s simply a conversation starter.
     
  2. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    How do you know?
     
  3. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    It might help if you knew the definition of the word. Some words have more than one meaning.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cult?s=t
     
  4. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I'm well aware of the definition. You should probably go read the rules again, pay close attention to the one about group insults. Comparing Trump voters to a suicidal cult is certainly a group insult. Shame on you for setting such a bad example and spreading partisan division. But go ahead and blame the President for your choices now.
     
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  5. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    In reading the definitions, read the wording that follows definition #1. Those definitions do not refer to suicidal cults. Lighten up just a little.
     
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  6. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    You are the one who compared Trump voters to a suicide cult. To late to walk it back.
     
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  7. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Do you like him (just write down the numbers of those you do agree with)
    5. Implementing a policy to separate children from their family with no plans on how to reunite them
    6. Minimizing the Coronavirus Threat for the first 3 months after the crisis started.
    7. Obstructing legitimate and constitutionally mandated congressional investigations.
    8. Obstructing a Grand Jury investigation that was initiated by his own administration
    9. Undermining the Whistleblower Protection Act, which will make it more difficult and unlikely for current and future whistleblowers to denounce actions that might (or might not) be illegitimate.
    10. Making statements that are verifiably false, knowing they are false, just about every time he speak in public
    11. Undermining our allies and palling with countries that are our adversaries most of which are led by murderous dictators?
    12. Undermining freedom of press.
    13. Increasing the deficit by trillions in a time of economic stability before the pandemic.
    ... I could go on. Let's try those for the moment.
    -
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  8. StarFox

    StarFox Banned

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    A young person does not have to "like" Donald Trump to recognize that he has done a damn good job for this country. It's all emotion with the left, they worshiped the ground Obama pissed on so conveniently ignored everything he screwed up daily, but Trump is orange so we must all hate him, that is the new rule. Sadly for democrats not all young people are so easily manipulated.

    I commend the OP for being a young person that is capable for actually thinking for himself/herself, that is refreshing for a change. In 2016 a democrat told my 22 year old daughter that if she voted for Trump then it would be legal to rape her, and her friends bought in to that bullcrap. Sorry dems, not all young people are stupid.
     
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  9. MDG045

    MDG045 Active Member

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    Ok some of these are a little tricky so I’ll respond to all of them.

    5.-Obama technically started that policy and we do the same thing to citizens who are parents who are convicted of crimes, their kids are taken away ,it’s nothing new.
    6.-that’s highly debatable.
    7. -Last time I checked the president is his own separate branch and has his own checks and balances he can implement and he his not subject to the will of congress completely.If he was we would live in parliamentary system instead of a federal republican system.
    8. -He can do what he wants with his administration, it’s his administration. Also I’m not sure what you are referring to.
    9-I actually don’t agree with this. I support wisteblowers and think Snowden is a hero.
    10. -Name a politician who hasn’t lied and maybe you’ll have a point here.
    11. -I disagree, give me an example.
    12. -Name a journalist who was locked up, and then I’ll give you this one. But since I know you can’t I have to say that this point is ridiculous
    13.- yes I think the government needs to lower spending. That is one thing I Have a problem with him about.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
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  10. MDG045

    MDG045 Active Member

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    Because I actively try to have an open mind about things...and I fail to see where this is going.
     
  11. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    In no way shape or form did Obama start that policy. But that's not the question. Do you or do you not agree with Trump's policy to separate children from their family with no plan whatsoever to reunite them? Should be simple. And yet I see you evading... Hmmm....

    I don't know how that would be debatable. It's on tape, tweets,... wherever you want. Looks like you're still evading to answer.


    Not according to the Constitution.

    Ok.... You're not going to answer any questions. For a moment there I thought you were trying to be objective. Obviously you're not.

    Jamal Khashoggi
     
  12. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed. I also watched Boris Johnson go on tv to thank the NHS and his ICU nurses for saving his life, and it made the difference with trump's demented, self serving rant even starker. What a shame to have such a defective character as potus during this crisis.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...arn-something-boris-johnson-about-leadership/
     
  13. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    In what way did I indicate he was "bad" because he's rich? Did you even read the entirety of the post (which was posted in two parts)? There is much more I could've listed, but I didn't want to take up so much of the thread...but there was certainly enough to expose the true nature of Trump.
    No, you're neither simplifying, nor paraphrasing what I said because it's not at all what I said.
    What does his history have to do with him as president? Um, well...logically, a person is defined by what he does/has done. So knowing a person's history, how they affected others, and what others know about them can be used to determine a person's character & reasonably predict what kind of president they will be. Logic 101.
    "Flimsy logic"?? Is that what you call a list of facts? Are you asserting that any of the items I listed about Trump's past to be false? If so, please educate me on which one's are untrue. If not, then please tell me how Trump's past does not reveal a person who has arrested development, and who is morally bankrupt, untrustworthy, and entirely incompetent for any position of influence/power/leadership...nor even in business. If you like narcissistic con men, then I understand why you favor Trump. If not, then you don't understand Trump.
    Show me exactly where there is any ad hominem attack. I provided a factual listing of Trump's history & exposed his lies. Yet you want to avoid facts, which is typical of Trump supporters. And you know why? Simple...because there's NO way to defend Trump with facts. Facts are Trump's nemesis. The only means of "defending" Trump is through personal attacks...not substance. Is it any wonder why Trump himself publicly insults people all the time? He has no other means to defend himself against honest, truthful criticism. Is it any wonder why he can never tell the truth or directly answer a question? The truth would reveal him to be a complete fraud & expose his self-centered agenda. This is what you consider a "good leader"???
    Hardly. If you can show me where I'm portraying people (including Trump) as "bad" because they're rich, then please do so. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air and not addressing what I listed about Trump's past. Trump is bad because he's bad...not because he's rich.

    If you must know, I personally don't care if people are rich. What concerns me is what they DO with that money. Possessing large sums of wealth offers a person a substantial measure of power/influence which needs to be exercised responsibly, because we all share this planet and need to be careful that we don't take excessively more than we need at the expense of others & the environment. In general, the richer a person is the more resources they consume. Money allows them to acquire/control/hoard more resources & labor, which then expands their wealth further, which then allows further hoarding/control of resources & labor, and so on. Thus, just one single wealthy person can pose a serious liability because of the potential impact they can have on all life on the planet. Another important point is that the opportunity to be "rich" is itself contraindicated in the well-being of every member of any social group, as the purpose of any social group is to mutually benefit all members. If anyone wants to be "rich", then they should strive to be "rich" by leaving the social group & living on their own in the wild. Let them test their self-described "rugged individualism" by living off the land...not by parasitically consuming/hoarding/controlling resources that others (who coexist as a group) depend on.

    The following adds to my point. The more money a capitalist has (or inherits), the easier it becomes to accumulate more.

    "According to the Institute for Policy Studies, over 60% of the Forbes richest 400 Americans grew up in substantial privilege.
    The richest people in the US are set to inherit $764 billion this year, but they'll pay an effective tax rate of only 2.1% on it, according to a new Brookings report."
    [LINK]
    One can be extremely intelligent, yet very closed-minded (I've encountered many college professors who are like this). And I never intimated that you are dumb, though it would be dishonest of me to say that I see you as open-minded. I believe you are closed-minded for the simple reason that you refuse to accept not only the FACTS (and a LONG list of them), but what those FACTS clearly tell us. If you cannot accept facts that contradict your position/argument, then you're no better than a programmed cult follower. Facts cannot be debated...so my position really isn't debatable. The facts plainly expose Trump for what he is...a hustler, con man, and social parasite who should never hold public office, or even be given large sums of money.
    Trump assassinates his own character by what he does. I'm merely reporting the obvious. Trump's history, actions, and words paint a clear picture of exactly what kind of person he is. But this was known by the those who knew him and/or followed his career decades before he ran for Office. Unfortunately most Americans (like me) didn't have a clue what kind of person he was because they didn't pay much attention to him before his campaign. I and many others only learned later after Trump took office, when, having stolen the vote & being handed the power/influence that comes with being President, his true nature was fully revealed.
    What "ignorance"? Facts are facts, and I merely presented it. You're living in a bubble of your own making which blocks you from seeing the greater REALITY. In this bubble you are able to contrive & convince yourself of whatever you deem to be the truth. This bubble is your comfort zone, and your attachment to & fear of it popping lies behind your need to protect it, building more & more false/distorted ideas & lies upon it. That bubble can become so thick & hardened that you'll have unwittingly imprisoned your mind. And Trump, as long as you follow him (and others like him), is helping you do that by exploiting this disposition in people. Trump (and others like him) want you to remain in your bubbles, never to transcend it and explore your full potential.
    You have no argument because you can't dispute the facts. That's why in your response to me you posted absolutely no refutation of the facts, but instead went on a rant about "logical fallacies" & "ad hominem", and that I believe rich people are "bad", and other common non-sequitur & straw man arguments of yours.

    Also, Trump is not "rich". He's broke and operates solely on endless debt...some say $1 billion, perhaps even $2 billion in debt. He even admits to being "the king of debt"...and is how he's conducted much of his business career. Trump has stated, "I've used the laws of this country to pare debt. ... We'll have the company. We'll throw it into a chapter [11]. We'll negotiate with the banks. We'll make a fantastic deal. You know, it's like on The Apprentice. It's not personal. It's just business."

    Trump is what is called a "useful idiot." He was installed as president to be used by an international group of oligarchs as a means to project their will with impunity. And Trump will go along with it because he cares only about money & attention. As Thom Hartmann said, if Trump did not give his oligarch benefactors what they wanted he would've been removed from Office long ago.
     
  14. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    * The elections are heavily rigged. See HERE...HERE...and HERE

    * Like a CEO of a corporation, the President is the manager of the "Corporation of the United States". They come & go, and have no hard powers to make establishment-altering changes. They either play by the rules of the old-money oligarchs & Vatican or they're removed/assassinated.

    * Elites use the Electoral College to override (steal) the popular vote. The Electoral College is a remnant of the slavery era enacted to ensure that southern/slave states (with more black slaves & who could not vote) wouldn't lose power/influence in Congress & presidential elections. Later the 3/5ths Compromise was instituted to enhance the political influence of slave holders.

    * You can only vote for electable people, who are basically "middle-men" & often "bought", rather than directly for real, meaningful changes that would ensure the well-being of all people/life. It is in no way democratic, nor is there any guarantee the winner will make good on any campaign promises in the first place, let alone do anything meaningful for the people/nation. Also, the real movers & shakers are not subject to a public vote (eg, old-money oligarchs, Fed. Reserve Chairman, Attorney General, Supreme Court justices, court of appeals judges, district court judges, CIA Director, FBI Director, DNI, IG, Sec. of State, EPA Director, NIH Director, etc...etc.)

    * People who choose to run for office are not equally represented or given equal media exposure & debate privileges. Personal wealth & money interests/powerful oligarchs determine who will be the two front-runners...and who the Electoral College is then limited to voting on. So elections are rigged through multiple stages, with the Electoral College limiting the people to one of only two (pro-establishment) candidates that will "win".

    * Voting gives you no control/power over the Federal Reserve & banking system, the coining/printing of money, interest rates, taxes, fiscal spending, the firing of corrupt officials, foreign policy, the waging of wars/military invasions, wages, military & other wasteful spending, stricter environmental regulations & the shutting down of businesses that pollute/abuse resources/cause suffering & death, federal criminal laws (eg, capital punishment, what is deemed a "crime", how crimes are punished, etc.), the abolishment of the current governmental system/the Constitution/the President/the Supreme Court/party system/etc., the gradual elimination of the monetary system, the UFO/alien coverup, suppression of natural/nontoxic/safe/cheap/effective medical treatments, exposure/re-investigation of conspiracies past & present, the expedited removal of public officials who have committed ANY violation of public trust...and much much more.

    * The president is chosen years in advance by old-money/trillionaire oligarchs.

    * Money/special interests largely dictates a president's administration, not what is best for all.

    * Your vote almost certainly won’t matter. On Election Day, work and donate your earnings.
    ---> Your vote matters only if you break a tie. The most optimistic theory in political science estimates that voters in swing states have a 1-in-10 million chance of deciding the presidential election. Everyone else’s chances are far lower. In all of American history, a single vote has never determined the outcome of a presidential election. And there are precious few examples of any other elections decided by a single vote.
    ---> In the American Political Science Review (the premier journal in political science), Adam Dynes and John Holbein carefully and rigorously measure how parties affect economic, education, crime, family, social, environmental and health outcomes. They find zero difference between Republican and Democratic state governments.
    ---> Most citizens are ignorant of basic political facts. They lack the social scientific knowledge needed to evaluate these facts. They process news in biased and self-serving ways. Thinking you’re the exception to the rule — the rational, informed person among the unreasonable — is unexceptional. Everyone thinks that. [LINK]
     
  15. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    @MDG045

    Here are even MORE facts that further reflects Trump's character for you to peruse. (And these, plus my previous long list, is STILL just the tip of the iceberg!) Can you handle the truth?

    On Impeachment

    Lamar Alexander's statement on impeachment witness vote
    GOP Senator Lamar Alexander admits the President's guilt is overwhelming, but backtracked by making the outlandish claim that the Senate doesn't have the Constitutional power to remove him, and that it should be left up to the people's vote in the upcoming election.

    How Mitt Romney [R-UT] Decided Trump Is Guilty
    Comparing the president’s behavior to that of an autocrat, the Republican senator explains to The Atlantic why he’s voting to convict him.
    In the end, the evidence was inescapable. “The president did in fact pressure a foreign government to corrupt our election process,” Romney said. “And really, corrupting an election process in a democratic republic is about as abusive and egregious an act against the Constitution—and one's oath—that I can imagine. It's what autocrats do.”

    Trump (as was his late father) is a corporate welfare beggar, and has depended on government (taxpayer) handouts to launch/maintain his so-called "business ventures."

    Trump’s Housing Hypocrisy
    The president owes his wealth to government-subsidized housing, but his new budget slashes housing aid for the poor.

    Trump Isn't a Self-Made Man. His Wealth Is the Product of Years of Government Subsidies
    The family real-estate business was powered by subsidies and cheap government-backed loans.

    Trump Received $885 Million in Tax Breaks for His New York Empire
    An investigation by the New York Times has found that Donald Trump has received at least $885 million in tax breaks, subsidies, and grants for his apartment, hotel, and office developments in New York City, based on analysis of the city’s tax, housing, and finance records.
    The investigation also found that Trump routinely used his and his father’s political connections to get the breaks he wanted, incentives that helped him cut costs on his projects and make more money on the apartments he sold as a result of lower taxes. And when political connections didn’t work, Trump was more than happy to sue to get the benefits he desired, which he did across three difference mayoral administrations.
    The Times points out that while de Blasio and Giuliani administration veteran Alicia Glen characterized Trump as “probably worse than any other developer in his relentless pursuit of every single dime of taxpayer subsidies he can get his paws on”:

    Viewpoint: Suspend The Trump Organization From Doing Business With Government
    It’s difficult to imagine a contractor not already on the federal government’s excluded party list (or “blacklist”) that presents a stronger case for exclusion. The most likely reason Trump Org hasn’t been suspended is a fear of retaliation, which only underscores why the government must stop doing business with the Trumps.
    Agencies most frequently suspend firms based upon adequate evidence of an offense indicating a lack of business integrity or business honesty that seriously and directly affects the contractor’s present responsibility. In 2020, only the willfully ignorant believe that Trump businesses embrace integrity and honesty.

    Democrats block Trump businesses from getting a bailout as coronavirus closes president's golf clubs
    Trump's businesses have been hit hard by the coronavirus, but the Senate stimulus bill bars him from bailout funds.
    Democrats secured a provision that blocks businesses owned by President Donald Trump and other government officials from receiving federal bailout funds, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., announced early Wednesday morning.
    Schumer's office said the provision blocks businesses owned by Trump, his family, Vice President Mike Pence, Cabinet officials and members of Congress from receiving loans from a $500 billion fund that would be distributed by the Treasury Department, according to Reuters.
    The legislation comes as Trump pushes to lift social distancing restrictions against the advice of medical experts in an effort to boost businesses. The call to ease restrictions came as the Trump Organization was forced to shutter six of its seven top-earning golf clubs due to government guidelines, The Washington Post reported. Trump held on to his businesses after he assumed the office of the presidency.

    Emoluments & Other Violations

    Blumenthal, et al. v. Trump
    Holding President Trump accountable for his violations of the Foreign Emoluments Clause.
    Because President Trump is accepting numerous financial benefits from foreign governments through his business empire without having first obtained the consent of Congress, Senator Richard Blumenthal, Representative Jerrold Nadler, and approximately 200 other Members of Congress asking the federal courts to compel the President to comply with the Constitution.
    Trump’s failure to comply with the Constitution matters. The Founders included the Foreign Emoluments Clause in the Constitution because they recognized that payments and gifts to U.S. officials by foreign governments could compromise the judgment of those officials and undermine their loyalty to the United States, thereby harming the American people. But as long as Congress were required to approve such benefits in advance, the risk of foreign corruption would be reduced.
    In September 2018, the United States District Court of the District of Columbia ruled that the plaintiffs have standing to sue President Trump for violating the Foreign Emoluments Clause.
    The district court concluded that Trump’s alleged acceptance of foreign emoluments without congressional consent injures the plaintiffs in their capacities as legislators by denying them specific voting opportunities to which they are entitled by the Constitution...

    The Actual Laws Trump Has Broken, Just With the Ukraine and China Affairs, Could Land Him 10 Years in Prison
    * 18 U.S. Code § 872: “Extortion by officers or employees of the United States”
    * 2 U.S. Code § 192, “Refusal of witness to testify or produce papers”
    * 18 U.S. Code § 610, “Coercion of political activity”
    * 18 U.S. Code § 607, “Place of solicitation”
    * 52 U.S. Code § 30121, “Contributions and donations by foreign nationals”

    < CONTINUED NEXT POST >​
     
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  16. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    < CONTINUED >​

    Glaring Conflicts of Interest

    Trump’s conflicts of interest are unprecedented and unconstitutional
    What distinguishes this transition from all others, however, is an unprecedented amount of conflicts of interest. The first set involves Trump’s family business. Foreign media photographed Ivanka Trump sitting in on a meeting with the Prime Minister of Japan, and President-Elect Trump has met with Indian and British officials regarding the Trump Organization’s interests. Kamarck points out that during the campaign, Donald Trump made the Clinton Foundation a major issue and accused Hillary Clinton of using her office as Secretary of State to further its goals. “If that was a problem,” she says, “then using the office of the presidency for the perpetuation of your business interests—hotels in India, for instance…is a little insane.” The president needs to withdraw completely from his businesses, and withdraw his children: “This is unprecedented, this is trouble, and this is unconstitutional as well.”
    Another set of conflicts involve members of the White House staff who also hold positions in media organizations.

    Your Day-One Guide to President Trump’s Conflicts of Interest (posted Jan 20, 2017)
    It’s Not What You Own—It’s What You Owe
    Trump, as Mother Jones has reported, will enter the White House as the most indebted president in history. And the new president’s lenders, which include foreign financial institutions, raise a whole slew of questions.
    The fact that Trump will enter office with his biggest lender under investigation by his administration is one of the most obvious conflicts his debts pose. But there are other ethical issues: What happens if one of his lenders wants to renegotiate the loan’s terms? How can the public be sure that the bank isn’t using its leverage to curry favor or that Trump isn’t using his position to seek special treatment?

    A corporate con man cons his voters & becomes a corporate shill in Office

    What We Found in Trump’s Drained Swamp: Hundreds of Ex-Lobbyists and D.C. Insiders
    For the first time, political appointee and federal financial disclosure information is publicly searchable.
    Trump Town is the result of a year spent filing hundreds of Freedom of Information Act requests; collecting and organizing staffing lists; and compiling, sifting through and publishing thousands of financial disclosure reports.
    Here’s what we found: At least 187 Trump political appointees have been federal lobbyists, and despite President Trump’s campaign pledge to “drain the swamp,” many are now overseeing the industries they once lobbied on behalf of. We’ve also discovered ethics waivers that allow Trump staffers to work on subjects in which they have financial conflicts of interest. In addition, at least 254 appointees affiliated with Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and at least 125 staffers from prominent conservative think tanks are now working in the federal government, many of whom are on teams to repeal Obama-era regulations.

    You Can’t Drain the Swamp and Also Defend the President
    Some of Trump’s supporters are worried about corruption—but he seems mostly worried about his political opponents.
    Some of his supporters still believe that he is draining the swamp, but they cannot point to any significant reform he has signed into law. They cannot point to a reform agenda he has sought to enact, only to be thwarted by Congress. They certainly cannot point to any investigative effort on a par with the Church Committee, the Pike Committee, or the Rockefeller Commission.
    Trump’s interest in possible misdeeds extends no further than the specific Democrats he considers his most direct political adversaries, such as Hillary Clinton. For all his theatrics, he is not actually fighting corruption any more than a WWE wrestler is actually fighting his opponent.

    Trump is flooding the swamp that Obama drained
    The long list of Trumpian corruption goes on and on and on. By comparison, President Barack Obama’s administration – which I served in – stands as a striking counterpoint to the Trumpian swamp.
    Sadly, a relentless conservative propaganda effort has led far too many Americans to believe that political scandals pervaded the Obama administration at the same rate and scale that they do the Trump administration. But a closer look at a few of these controversies – IRS “targeting,” Fast and Furious, Benghazi and Hillary Clinton’s email practices – sets the record straight on such inane efforts to draw equivalencies between the two administrations.

    Sanders Says Congress Must Stop Trump From Privatizing the Postal Service
    Sen. Bernie Sanders on Sunday urged Congress to act immediately to stop President Donald Trump from using the novel coronavirus outbreak “as an opportunity to bankrupt and privatize the Postal Service,” a longstanding goal of the conservative movement.

    Trump Administration Plans to Privatize National Park Campgrounds
    Plan Would Raise Camping Fees, Limit Discounts for Seniors
    Sierra Club tweet
    Trump plans to privatize #NationalPark campgrounds, hike fees, limit senior discounts. Just another profit grab by an administration determined to sell off our public lands to the highest bidder.

    Trump Advances Massive Fracking Expansion on Colorado Federal Lands
    The Trump administration on Friday released a new land use plan for southwestern Colorado that community and conservation advocacy groups warn is a "dangerous" pathway towards increased fossil fuel extraction that makes no "climate, ecological, or economic sense."
    The advocacy groups opposed to the plan say that expanding fracking in the region over the next decades will not only add fuel to the planetary climate crisis, but will also adversely impact local organic agriculture and endangered species.
    The plan would allow fracking on more than half of the 675,000 acres of public land and almost a million acres of federal minerals that it covers, and coal extraction on another 371,000 acres.

    EPA Evades Public Comment Period, Allows Cancer-Causing Pesticide
    "The press release caught everyone off guard, we were just waiting for the EPA to open the comment period, and we never saw it," said Nathan Donley, a senior scientist at the Center for Biological Diversity, referring to an EPA press release, as the AP reported.
    "Clearly no one from the public health community knew about this because no one commented," Donley said, as The Midwest Center for Investigative Reporting noted. "Yet there was all these industry comments, all these positive comments. Someone was tipped off that this docket had been opened. One side was able to comment, the other wasn't."

    Trump’s EPA Is Unleashing the Pollution That Makes Us Vulnerable to COVID-19
    Past exposure to air pollution increases the risk that an individual will suffer critical illness after contracting COVID-19, according to a report released on April 8 by researchers at Harvard. In light of this finding, the recent decision of Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to indefinitely suspend environmental rule enforcement is tantamount to gross negligence.

    Trump’s Anti-Environment Agenda for 2020: When Opportunism Knocks
    It's hard to pick the most egregious example of recent administrative wrongdoing; each is horrible in its own special way. So let's just start with the most brazen. On March 26 [2020], the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency announced that it would be easing enforcement of a wide swath of legally mandated environmental protections during the COVID-19 crisis, citing "consequences [that] may affect the ability of an operation to meet enforceable limitations on air emissions and water discharges, requirements for the management of hazardous waste, or requirements to ensure and provide safe drinking water." Henceforth, if a regulated business can plausibly blame the pandemic for its noncompliance with monitoring or reporting obligations, the EPA will waive any fines and/or civil penalties for violators.
    Now, should a facility decide that it would rather not be so transparent, it doesn't have to be.

    The following 44-second video reveals what Trump really thinks about people. This is the kind of President you want?



    In conclusion, regarding your OP, I suspect you really can't be convinced simply because you're not open to the FACTS...which is what really matters. Instead, you've been drawn in by Trump's shallow rhetoric & lies ---- his grandiose claims & hyperbole, empty promises, superlatives & exaggerations, nonsensical double-talk, 5th grade rants/rallies, delusions of grandeur, and the incessant us-vs-them/we're-better-than-everyone rhetoric. It's the same sentiments that drew millions of down-trodden Germans to Hitler's rants & grandiose promises. Trump exploits the people's despair & suffering by telling them what they want to hear...all the while having planned out a diametrically opposed agenda (ie, to hand what remains of public ownership/control over to the oligarchs, while enriching himself).
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
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  17. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For reference I voted for trump in round one simply because I despised Hillary, reasons why I will not do so again break down into numerous categories but I will just touch on a few of the ones I feel are most significant.
    • He has severely lowered the level of national discourse and the expectations of the office: He openly attacks his opponents, the media, anyone that disagrees with him. He expects blind loyalty to himself instead of loyalty to the Nation and seems to be sacrificing the long term success of the nation for temporary gain. He fires people because they are not yes men and retaliates against public servants for doing what their job requires because they crossed him.
    • He is an outright liar: I shouldn’t have to expand on this as you seem to be paying attention but I will be happy to do so.
    • He is dismantling our institutions by nominating individuals with the express goal of doing the opposite of the agency they have been selected to head. The EPA, CDC, NWS, DOJ, DOE, HUD even the National Library
    • He has rolled back environmental relations to an excessive level
    • He is completely ignoring the national debt and most national healthcare issues
    Not to mention the dozens of conflicts of interest he engages in weekly — he just isn’t presidential and projects his demeanor across the globe — he represents us — and his economy seems to be propped up by poor fiscal policy that is completely unsustainable.

    Not everything he has done is bad but many of the precedents he is setting will ripple across our country forever.
     
  18. MDG045

    MDG045 Active Member

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    first off it is a fact that Obama started the family separation policy between illegal immigrants. It’s a well documented fact. And secondly I don’t disagree with the policy per say. Even citizens are separated from their children when they are convicted of a felony. Now as far as what proper measures are being taken to make sure they are returned, I will admit my ignorance on this one, and simply say that I don’t know how it’s being handled and therefore I cannot give an honest answer. If you would provide some objective evidence of this I might make a decision.

    as for his response to the coronavirus. I fail to see how trump failed to act considering how he closed al travel back and forth from China in January. If anything the democrats were obstructing his ability to handle it before it became worse because they clearly were more worried about impeaching him on bullshit charges.

    and as for the constitution. You clearly haven’t read it. It is and has been the case ever since it’s creation, that the president, while not above the law, is not at the total behest of Congress. He is his own branch with his own set of powers. Do like I said last time, f he had to do everything congress told him to do, we would have a parliamentary system like Great Britain. But we don’t, do the president doesn’t have to do everything congress tells him to do. It’s called separation of powers.

    And finally, last I checked that guy was killed by Saudi’s Arabia. I’m talking about a us journalist. Again try to find one, and you won’t.
     
  19. MDG045

    MDG045 Active Member

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    Ok first off, let me star off by saying that no system is perfect not even the American system. But what you just raddled off wasn’t facts it was all opinion based. For example, you stated that the potus is chose years in advance by moneyed interests...:sleeping: this is not only such a tired argument, not in fact a fact. It’s your opinion. Now while I do agree that moneyed interests have a lot of power in elections, it is not true that they’re say always becomes scripture. I bring up as an example trump vs. Hillary 2016. If you think the corporate and American elite in L.A. and NYC supporter trump, then you clearly weren’t paying attention.

    And secondly, I do t agree with your take on the electoral college. The whole reason why it was created was because, the founders took Socrates and many other Ancient Greek philosophers advice, in that pure democracy has one flaw, it’s a tyranny of the politics majority. The whole reason for why it exists, is to give politics minority voices more power. Which I would argue is more fair the. Just leaving it up to the popular vote. Honestly whenever I hear this argument against the electoral college it makes me laugh, simply because of how it shows certain people, including you, your own ignorance of philosophy, and history.

    Also, all these facts you just gave me are all not facts. For example, this quote of yours is not a fact it is an opinion."You can only vote for electable people, who are basically "middle-men" & often "bought". Now if you had phrased your sentence in a way that implies it does happen a lot but not everytime, then it would be a fact. But, a lot like a lot of the other sentences in this post, are very hyperbolic and opinionated. Now, that doesn't mean there weren't some true facts put in there. For example, I do Grant you that the media clearly is biased in who they favor. But, this again destroys your argument of the media and elites choosing the president cause trump won. They clearly didn't like him, why would they help him win????

    Also, the idea that no votes matter is ridiculous. Last time I checked in the 2000 election, bush won by like...IDK...200,000 votes. I'm probably off by a few hundred or whatever. So it is not true. All this hog wash you've just spewed is opinionated hyperbolic throw-up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  20. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    If it were a "well documented fact" you would have shown those "well documents". You didn't! Unless what you consider "well documented" is the Fox echo-chamber. I'm afraid they lied to you, and you fell for it! You're not alone, though. Many have come to this forum with that myth. You will find plenty of threads where that is off topic and those who still believe Fox are quickly and summarily educated on the matter. Off-topic here, though.

    That's says it all about your moral standards. BTW, people who come to this country seeking asylum are not criminals, as I'm sure Fox also fooled you into believing. And no court in the system abandons a child when they have nobody to look after them. They are placed in foster homes until their parents leave prison, and they are immediately reunited. There is no plan whatsoever to reunite these children with their parents.... ever!

    Nope! Here...
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-for-restricting-travel-from-china-if.570984/

    Who will stop him if he decides that he is above the law?

    It has nothing to do with you, but your responses seem naive. I'm guessing you're young and will gain more experience as you learn. First thing you need to learn is not to believe what Fox and their echo chamber tells you just because you would like what they tell you to be true.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  21. MDG045

    MDG045 Active Member

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    Also, I am open to facts but, what you are presenting in these posts are, for the most part, not facts, they are misconceptions and lies on your part.

    #1. I have yet to see any evidence that trump has profited at all from his business while being president. I have however seen plenty of evidence that Clinton did use the Clinton foundation to money launder for her campaign. So I am open to seeing what you are talking about. But so far, the only argument I have heard is basically what you just said, Trump used to own businesses, now his kids do, he had a lot of business relations in other countries. This means he is using his office to further his business interests. Ok, do you see the illogical soup you just spewed into my face and everyone on this post. You went from taking a scenario that is and was real and does look a little suspicious, and jumping a huge leap to a unfounded conclusion with no evidence. Please provide this evidence and I might change my mind.

    #2 Ok, he has debt...So do I. Why the **** should I care. If he hasn't done anything illegal since he has been in office, which he hasn't and hasn't been charged with any crime, then what the **** does it matter. Also, if anyone had any conflict of interest it was the Clintons, with their Clinton foundation money laundering scam. So Please, don't bullshit me.

    #3 Ok, clearly you didn't get what he meant when he said drain the swamp. He didn't mean drain everyone out of the swamp, he just meant the democrats. I'm not saying I agree with this, but you are clearly not understanding what he meant. Because, to him and other republicans, the democrats are the gators in the swamp. DUH!!!! :frustrated:Also, to pretend that Obama was this bastion of uncoruptible politics, is laughably stupid. No one buys that, no one! Because, he wasn't.

    #4- Ok, I don't know anything about this and don't know if it's true. But if it is, I disagree with this. Please provide, evidence to support this claim. Otherwise I don't believe you.

    #5-As an eagle scout and a Republican who actually sides with the left on this issue, if this is true, I am against that. But, provide evidence!!!!!! You are saying all these things and yet no evidence. You can't just makes all these claims without evidence, the burden of proof right now is on you, and you have yet to proof anything!!!!

    #6- I am against fracking, but once again...evidence please!!!!:angered:

    #7- again...I need evidence!!!!! You have given a bunch of quotes, yet no citations, so as far as I know, you could be making all this **** up!!!

    #8- What is this...Trump is releasing the pollution that makes us vulnerable to Covid-19...:|:roflol:...oh wow that was funny. And once again...EVIDENCE!!!!!! I NEED IT TO BELIEVE YOU!!!!

    #9-Trump has been terrible on the environment. That is one thing I disagree with him on and I will give that to you sir or mam or whatever you identify as.

    Also, that video of yours I find hilarious. Because, you clearly, didn't notice that he wasn't talking about kicking people out of there homes...:roflol::nana:. He was saying he didn't care what they thought about his golf course because the course is his property. He wasn't saying that their home was his property. You are so blinded by hatred that you fell for that phony political bullshit ad...God that is sad. Wow...I'm practically beating you while you are down...:deadhorse:

    And finally, THESE ARE YOUR FACTS!!!???? As far as you have proven to me, all you have to support your dislike of a person you don't even know, is a ridiculous left wing propaganda video that if you took at least, half of a minute like I did to watch it, you would notice what the context was. Also, all your so called evidence, is nothing but hyperbolic word salad that I have never heard of, and you couldn't even back it up with evidence!!!!! I saw a lot of "quotes", that weren't sited by the way. So all you convinced me of, is that you, dear poster, don't know what you are talking about, but what's so funny is that you think you do. Now, as far as your claims that I am also a partisan hack. I mention multiple cases, in this post and others, where I disagreed with Trump. I even gave you one of your points and agreed with you. So please, next time you want to post on this thread, make an argument...and...oh yeah...provide actual *******n evidence!!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  22. MDG045

    MDG045 Active Member

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    Ok, to start off it appears that I was wrong about the Obama administration and the family separation. I tip my hat to you on that.

    Secondly, If you had even read my post, you will see that even citizens who are convicted are separated. So please, stop straw-mannng me. You are taking my quotes out of context. And I said I'm not against it persay but it all depends on how they are treated. Also, if they were seeking asylum, there are ways to do that. Most of them, at least as far as I understand it, were not!!!!!

    Also, I was wrong about him closing travel from china in January. My mistake.

    and third, the ****ing voters!!!!!! Last I checked there's a system in place that you clearly don't know enough about. Also, you took my quote out of context again! Stop straw-manning me.

    and finally, you know nothing about me. I don't watch fox news, in-act I hate all legacy media outlets. Also, I find it a little bigoted that you think so little of myself and others who are on the right, that you just think we are a bunch of hicks who watch fox news all day, and ride are horses or whatever. For your information, all this shows is your own bigoted attitude to those who think differently than you. I have yet to attack you personally so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do so to me. Also, next time you quote something of mine....Quote the whole thing!!! You took my quotes out of context multiple times!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  23. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    The links are in red. Did you not notice or read the articles I linked to?

    And yes, these are facts, as in they are happening now or have happened. Thus they're not refutable (unless you can demonstrate otherwise.) They are merely to illustrate how Trump has, and continues to push for measures that benefit big business...all at the expense of the people, nation, and environment...and without consent of the people.
     
  24. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Get a grip. The guy is a con man and two-bit thug. And now he thinks he's a king.



    If you aren't seriously disturbed by what trump just said, then you don't support the Constitution. In that event you may be something but you're not an American. And whatever you feel it isn't patriotism. It is something dark and sinister; the kind of thing countless Americans have died to defeat in World Wars and the elimination of despots and tyrants.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
  25. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    Huh?? Did you bother doing any research on this before making your claim??

    Trump said "Sarah, I want to get rid of that house." Sarah says, "It's going to create a bit of a stir." Trump replies, "Who cares, who cares...it's our property we can do whatever we want."

    Trump was indeed wanting to get rid of the house, which means REMOVING house + residents....duh! And yes, I know it wasn't on his property, but he tried to get the Scottish govt to remove several houses & land through compulsory purchase orders...but failed. The controversy was about residents fighting to not lose their homes/land & leave...not at all about the residents disliking the view of a golf resort next to their homes (though it's true they didn't at all like it because of the destruction of unspoiled land).

    Here is a short video about how Trump first tried to trick the residents into selling their homes (at half the marker rate), and when that didn't work he looked to exploiting Scottish laws by applying for govt compulsory purchase orders of the properties in order to force the sale (and removal) of several of the residents' homes & land (8 plots total). The residential properties aren't even in the way of the golf course, yet Trump ordered the bulldozing of huge sand dunes & formed piles of dirt around the homes so they can't be seen. Plus, Trump has cleared land that was designated of Special Scientific Interest (SSI), and the construction has decimated a once beautiful area. Trump even lied on the David Letterman show about this project, and residents were threatened & verbally assaulted.
    (video 14 min) Fight Trump (2011): Residents Opposing Donald Trump's Scottish Golf Resort

    Here is the full documentary video about the Aberdeen golf resort.
    (video 1:40 hr) You've Been Trumped - Trump Documentary Movie 2017

    Another short video entitled "Trump Ruins Golf Course & Gets Laughed Out of Town", shows how Trump tried to con the Head of the Scottish govt (Alex Salmond, into agreeing to go ahead with the golf course project in the hopes (Trump's promises) that it would benefit the local economy. But it was a disaster and Trump didn't honor his agreements he made to the Scottish people, and failed to make good on any of his job & financial/spending promises. A petition submitted to the Westminster Parliament was even signed by almost 600,000 Scottish citizens calling for Trump to be banned from entry into the UK!!
    (video 5 min) Trump RUINS Golf Course And Gets Laughed Out Of Town

    Trump even fought to have wind turbines removed because they "spoiled" the view from the golf course!!

    Trump forced to pay £225,000 to Scottish government after losing fight over wind farm
    Donald Trump’s golf course company has been ordered to pay almost £250,000 to the Scottish government following a bitter dispute over a wind farm. The US president mounted a lengthy challenge against plans for an 11-turbine scheme off the Aberdeenshire coast, claiming it would spoil the view from his Balmedie golf course.

    And you STILL love this guy?! :icon_picknose:

    I'll address the rest of your post later on. It's late.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020

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