Why I am a libertarian, and you should be too

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by jcarlilesiu, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Nor was I, I was talking about people in the U.S. who for whatever reason can't move out of state.

    I would agree. However, there is a question of exactly what freedom looks like. Does a person without money have freedom of choice?

    Why not? How is it freedom of choice if you only have one choice?

    I'm sure. I'm using quite extreme examples to highlight points, but I don't advocate them. I don't suggest throwing what you call personal freedoms out the window, if the thread was about justifying my favourite system, it would contain a combination of ideas.
     
  2. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    The constitution doesn't need to define marriage, but I foresee, on the horizon, an amendment to allow, and to consitutionally codify, gay marriage. I don't see how the government can "stay out of it", given that marriage is a contract, which puts it squarely under the purview of law. Contracts have legal implications, divorce, property rights, taxes, inheritance, who is allowed to see a loved one if one is in the hospital, that sort of thing, and thus, the government's involvement is unavoidable.
    Well, is it federal or state, land? As a legal matter, that decides that particular point.
     
  3. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    More importantly which government should manage it, not which one does manage it. I don't see any reason that the federal government should own land any more than it should own businesses. My vision of a smaller, better federal government means a return to being a union of states.
     
  4. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Yes but perhaps doesn't have the means to exercise it.



    I have the freedom to buy an airplane. I don't have the money to buy one nor do i really want one but the freedom and choice to buy one is still there.



    We have powers both in federal and state governments. My problem is that the power should dominate in the states for the reasons we have been talking about. My opinion is that federal government has too much power over the states. It has it by buying it from the states with grants over the years. In my view it should be illegal for federal government to send money to the states since they are taxing authorities themselves. States should fund federal government and choose the services they receive from it through the congress. We were founded as a union of states but lost that somewhere along the way.
     
  5. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't, any more than a property management company owns the properties it manages. Federal land is owned by the People as represented by a supermajority of states.
     
  6. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Tell that to the Bureau of Land Management. They think federal lands are owned by federal government.
     
  7. tharock220

    tharock220 Well-Known Member

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    I'm a recovering libertarian. I say that because I do believe in individual liberties. I don't, however, agree with the gold standard, a total lack of government regulation, eliminating public education, and an isolationist foreign policy, among other batshit crazy libertarian ideals.
     
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  8. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Sure, when the king isn't looking, his servants turn tyrant. Not many stories older than that one. The question is why the king (i.e., the People) is acting like a pro wrestling referee.
     
  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So - you want to force your puritan sexual beliefs on others through law. Not exactly in keeping with the principles of Republicanism - or the founding principles - but - each to their own.
     
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some good points .. Like with any group - not all libertarians believe in all those things .. but in general I agree that the segment calling themselves "Libertarian" go too far in some respects.
     
  11. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstand. But then we've covered this ground before and I see no reason to pursue it further.
     
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually - the problem you are experiencing is that I do understand - the consequences of your beliefs - what follows from your beliefs.

    Your issue is that you are having trouble reconciling what follows from your beliefs - and do you don't want to think about that - thought avoidance being a typical reaction of those under the influence of some sophisticated mind bending techniques.
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Sorry know I know exactly what follows from my beliefs, babies don't get murdered in the womb women and children don't get sexually abused. Fewer abortions fewer children born not knowing who daddy is men and women are held accountable for spreading disease, and using each other to please themselves.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Gibberish follows from your beliefs :) - there is no "baby in the womb" in the early stages of pregnancy that you can prove.

    the upshot is that you want use physical violence to control another person - based your made up religious beliefs that do not even conform to what is in the religious texts that you claim to believe in.

    That's what I call a extremist religious control freak.

    What is this gibberish all about ? No clue what you are talking about - how this relates to the conversation - and neither do you. You are just rambling nonsense.

    What does disease have to do with anything .. how will banning abortion stop the spread of disease .. did you think people will stop having sex ?

    You are a confused individual - like a leaf wafting any direction the wind blows - no foundation for your beliefs - and half the time you don't understand what follows from your beliefs.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  15. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Your knowledge of fetal development is vacuous at best. According to Barak the average abortion is performed at 10 weeks. By that time the baby has brain waves, a heart beat, finger prints its own dna, and everything that marks it has a human being the only differences between it and a new born it lung capacity.
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You claim its a baby at conception - now you try to move the goal post to 10 weeks - but fail miserably even at that.

    Brain waves at 10 weeks? - really - back up this claim .. last time I checked - the wiring of the brain does not get completed until around 22-24 weeks. Someone has been filling your head with falsehood.

    The thing has its own DNA - no kidding- So does a banana.

    As stated previously - your beliefs have no foundation.

    None of the above shows that the single human cell at conception is "a baby" - a living human - a person - such that this person is entitled to rights - including the right to life.

    In fact - you don't even come close- as nothing you have said even relates to the claim that a zygote is a human - never mind support it.

    So you completely fail in your attempt at a secular argument.

    Fear not however , You stressed your Christianity as the main driving force behind your beliefs with respect to Abortion.
    Do tell me how God sat down with you for tea the other day and told you his thoughts on abortion - because there is nothing in the holy book that condemns abortion - and these folks condemned a whole lot of things so it wasn't like they did not have the opportunity.

    In fact - the only time abortion is mentioned directly - God has proscribed the procedure - in the case of a jealous husband who suspects his wife is pregnant by another man.

    The other references to abortion are indirect - when God orders that pregnant women be killed.

    So - who are you - that you know what God thinks - are you Jeshua - "The Logos" ? - emissary between man and God according to the Gospel of John. Do you have the power to speak God's word directly through the Holy Spirit ? Do you have the title Pontifex Maximus ?

    Speaking of the Logos - if the zygote is such a big deal to God - how come Jesus never mentioned it .. nor did Paul .. or the disciples.

    A leaf - wafting where the wind blows - no foundation for your beliefs - either secular or religious. These beliefs were given to you by charlatans The Logos had a few comments for those folks in the Sermon on the Mount -

    This is from Matt 7

    Is it the "Will of the Father" for you to make law on the basis of your personal spin on Religion - force those beliefs on others through physical violence ?
     
  17. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Because the king has no power?
     
  18. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    No we believe in it, we just know as a matter of fact it means something different than what you want it to mean.
     
  19. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Provide the common defence, an army
    Ensuring domestic tranquility, uphold the constitution
    General welfare, ensure the blessings of liberty to everyone
    That's it. That is all the federal government is supposed to do.

    I think this should be the guidelines for the states as well. They should be barred from having more restrictions on personal liberties than the constitution allows.

    In fact the biggest part of domestic tranquility is ensuring that states don't trample on peoples rights.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    "A recovering libertarian' that would be me, but I went through them changes back in the 80s, and by 1990, I was cured. In 1980, I voted for Ed Clark, the libertarian nominee that year, and naive me didn't understand who is running mate was, it was one of the Koch Bros. Libertarians are, indeed, wacko, but I do agree weed should be totally legalized, including prostitution.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  21. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Perhaps the founding fathers knew that they couldn't possibly itemize and list every "right" as no one can possibly foresee them all especially at the incipient stage of our republic (as 'gay marriage' and 'abortion' were vastly far from the consciousness of learned men of the late 18th century) so there developed the concept of 'penumbra rights' and they left such things up to supreme court to determine, as time brought the issues of them to the court, such is the case with gay marriage and abortion.


    More on penumbra rights:

    https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/penumbra/
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  22. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think I am wacko?
     
  23. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Excuse me, I should qualify that description. I don't think you are wacko, only some of the typical libertarian beliefs, such as the total withdrawal of American forces from the world stage. I'm luke warm to the idea, I'd go for a reduction, the degree of which subject to expert opinion, but a total reduction is crazy.

    And, on health care, I'm the opposite, I believe in UHC, but libertarians believe in charity. But, reality tells us that the scope of the problem simply cannot be undertaken by charity. Say you have someone dying on the streets, bleeding to death, so in a libertarian world he takes his cellphone out, hunts around on Yelp for a charity, calls them up, gets a recording, 'sorry, call back during normal biz hours" or "sorry, we cannot take any more cases at this time, we're all booked up", etc, and dials the next, then the next, then he dies trying.

    That's why I believe some libertarian ideas are wacko.

    If you want to debate any item on the libertarian platform, I'd be happy to do so. In fact, I'd like nothing more, mindful that I used to be a libertarian. My apologies for the ad hominem, it should have been an 'ad argumentum'.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  24. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    I think you could say that about some democrats and republicans.

    I assume you are talking about the recent government bailouts. There could be some libertarians that approve of government overspending but I don't know any personally. Most of us want less government.

    So are some democrat and republican ones. Politics is humanity at its worst. It isn't unexpected to see wacky ideas.
     
  25. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I agree about asset forfeiture, and it seems to me to be a constitution violation, where they confiscate assets before conviction, and never return them. That's just wrong.

    But, in 'human sexuality' and 'laissez faire' approach, are you saying you are against pornography and prostitution? If there were any place in the universe where the government should keeps it's hands out of, it is human sexuality, so on that, I adamantly disagree. I don't even believe Christ, himself, would agree with you.
     
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