Can I not believe in God and NOT be an atheist?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Patricio Da Silva, May 1, 2020.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Okay, let me explain.

    First off, I believe in the immortal soul.

    Second, I believe in reincarnation, but not dogmatically.

    I think we were synthesized, many millions, perhaps billlions, of years ago, and our souls were microscopic (in degree of consciousness ) at the single cellular level.

    As life progressed, more complex organisms evolved, and our souls evolved ( wrong term, 'grew' is better ) right along with genetic evolution, souls graduating to higher life forms, until we reach Homo Sapiens.

    As for the source of life, i view it like other forces, but this force from which soul and consciousness flows from, is not an intelligence, it is merely a source, spewing forth consciousness at random, in the same random fashion as stars are born, and, ultimately speaking, all life comes from the stardust of exploding stars.

    I believe this force is spiritual, but not 'a spirit' it's a collective thing like energy is a collective thing.

    so, THAT is my 'god'.

    What I don't believe is the God of antiquity, a father in heaven, jealous, angry, rewarding, punishing, judging, watching our every move, imparting guilt, etc.

    to my thinking, that's not even logical. That's the mindset of antiquity, which is perfectly natural at that stage of consciousness development (noting that many still, today, cling to it, and it will probably take another thousand years for things like Christianity/Muslim, etc to fade completely).

    But, do I have faith?

    Yes, I do. My faith is the faith that somehow, some way, in some form, perhaps in the distant future after many incarnations, we will find that 'spiritual eternal bliss" and this is the inevitable flowering of our consciousness, which some sages in history have referred to as "nirvana' or "samadhi" or "self-realization", etc. and I guess I'm still a hippy after all these years. One of my favorite books is the Tao Te Ching.

    But, am I an atheist? Some say that man is basically mud, and will return to mud, forever. It's oblivion beyond that. Well, I don't buy it.

    Wishful thinking? Perhaps? But it's logical to me, and I do need logic. This idea that we live only once, to me, that is the weird proposition.

    Moreover, as a musician ( I play piano and guitar ) I've seen child prodigies, literally pick up an instrument and begin to play, with no prior study or training ( I've seen them on TV, to be honest ). Mozart is said to have done this. How is this possible? that the child is recalling a past life makes a lot more sense to me. Anyway, there it is.

    I wouldn't call myself an atheist yet a Christian friend of mine thinks I'm going to hell. Can't win, I guess :)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  2. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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  3. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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  4. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God. So if you don't believe in God, you are an atheist. However, atheism is very controvercial so most people don't want to be associated with it. Most people who won't believe in God try to find other labels like "agnostic", "non-religious", "pantheist", "non-practicing <insert religion here>", or spiritual.
     
  5. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    there is one question to ask yourself. do you believe there was a will behind the creation of all you perceive? it doesn't have to be a will as you understand it, but it cannot be simply blind force. if the answer is no, then you are an atheist. don't let that label scare you. not all of us are rude, disrespectful and irritating.
     
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  6. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Ah, the elusive "soul". This is the last vestment of religiosity that I shed.

    Where is the soul? How big is it? What is it made of and how does it transcend time and space....at least those are the properties and powers claimed by religion. Regardless of religion, the concept of the soul seems to permeate all cultures. The concept is so pervasive that throughout the history of civilization it is assumed as something so fundamental even governments in the modern world write constitutions and laws based on the belief of the existence of this concept. Scientists and doctors have honestly tried to find and prove this human soul since the early days of the enlightenment.

    Ever heard the claim the human soul weighs 21 grams? A doctor at the turn of the twentieth century tried to prove the soul departing the body by weighing patients before and after death and based on his findings he came to the conclusion the soul is about 21 grams. He based his findings on several patients at a sanatorium for people dying of TB. It was quite a popular concept for several decades, but no one has been able to replicate his findings.

    Even the study of the neurology of the brain has not found the soul.

    So is their a soul, or not? I've pondered and researched this concept as far as I can, and I too find no evidence of a physical soul. Yet it still feels "true", so this must be an evolved trait that serves some evolutionary purpose to believe in this soul concept.

    Now in regards to the examples you state about re-incarnation, or child prodigies, there does appear to be a phenomenon at play, but the window for being able to inquire appears brief. Those children who have been queried for possible past experiences seem to be able to be responsive for only a short time before they forget.

    Then there's also the in-depth studies done on identical twins and their unusual bond that also fits the bill for weird science by being able to subconsciously communicate with each other, even when separated over great distances. Something is going on, but we already know that there is no ether, a concept from the 19th century's science that has been thoroughly refuted.

    What we are talking about is essentially data, and there does appear to be some spooky stuff that happens at the sub atomic level as physicists discover the ways these tiny bits of particles interact with matter. This is the realm of quantum mechanics, but it breaks down at trying to explain the universe when taken to the macro scale, which functions perfectly well under the laws of general relativity. Until physicists bridge the gap between relativity and quantum mechanics, we may not be able to discover what is going on with these apparent phenomenon.

    The soul is nothing more than raw data, a collection of our experiences and ruminations possibly being recorded to be played back and reassembled at some point in the future when certain conditions arise. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  7. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Certainly that is the less threatening alternative to the egotistically inclined.
    You're an atheist, you betcha.
     
  8. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    So, in your view, an atheist can believe in the immortal soul?

    See, I do believe that life has a spiritual basis, so I don't know how
    that belief could accommodate atheism.

    How about Pantheists? Are they atheists, in your view, as well?

    Pantheism is a little closer to my view.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    this is a misrepresentation of agnostic as usual.
    agnostics choose no side therefore are neither theist nor atheist.
    atheist are hard up for increasing their numbers to broadened the numbers and scope to anyone that has not professed strong believe in a deity, refusing to accept that they to are a religion despite even scotus ruled it is.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  10. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, science really shouldn't be pursuing the question of whether or not there is such a thing as soul, because it's not measurable by machines. They'll only get frustrated or ridiculed if they bother with the subject.

    so, not immortal, then?

    I can't prove it, but I disagree. We'll have to end the debate here, since my view relies on my intuition and belief, which, of course, is not proof.

    As for child prodigies, the fact that a child quickly forgets doesn't vanquish the notion that the reason they can play suddenly, without training, is due to a past life of their being a musician. In fact, forgetting seems natural.

    Are there not examples of child remembering details of past lives that they couldn't not have known otherwise? ( I'll have to search the internet, I do believe there are unexplanable examples of this ).

    I don't think science will ever "find" a soul, as it doesn't exist in time or space.
    That sounds impossible, until you have an intense spiritual experience, then how it's possible becomes clear. What is also clear is that attempts to prove it is a fool's errand.

    There appears to be an astral plane, which might be quantum, and scientists might confuse such with 'soul' but soul isn't an astral body, either. An astral body is just a lighter, extremely lighter, body. As science advances, they might be able to measure them. This is the realm of 'ghosts', etc.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  11. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    As a theoretical matter, I don't see why not.
    If their god is devoid of intelligence, definitely.
     
  12. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Atheists and theists are discussing what they believe and don't believe. Agnosticism refers to a lack of knowledge. I am an agnostic atheist. I don't know whether God exists. I do not believe in the existence of God or Gods. If I said I don't know if God exists but I do believe in God, then I would be an agnostic theist.
     
  13. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're spiritual. But not necessarily a Spiritualist, because that has a very different definition.

    The closest I can figure, if you want an 'ism' would be a multidimensionalist. As I am, though in a different way.

    Supposing there is a life force or spirit as you believe (and as I do) that evolved or grew paralel to our physical reality, it would likely exist extradimensionally (but linked dimensionally to ours). As I see it, evolution is the physical description of our journey from the first simple organisms, while creation (regardless of which version) is the best or most closely translatable description of our other-dimensional spiritual journey as it can best be described in terms that translate to this reality.

    Personslly, I do believe in God (the one of The Bible), however it makes sense to me that He is an omni-dimensional being while we, His creations, experience only one or possibly two (depending how one defines 'to experience') dimensions or realities- the physical and the 'spiritual.' Perhaps there are only two, perhaps more. Perhaps the afterlife(s) is our journey toward experiencing more/all of them. Or perhaps we create the afterlife by accessing them via technological advancement. IDK. The future is infinite possibilities.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  14. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    What if the Pantheist choose not to presume 'intelligence'?

    Can an atheist believe in ghosts?

    Can an atheist believe in ESP?

    Can an atheist believe in clairvoyance?

    See, when you call someone an atheist, it conjures up an immediate connotation, of none of the above.

    Therefore, the term is inadequate. Which is why I reject the label. Also, I don't belive YOUR God, is intelligent, he sure seems like a cruel prick, if you ask me.

    I mean, if I added up all my sins, I'd get a few days in the slammer, tops, and Christians want to send me to burn in agony in hell, forever, for the mere crime of failing to agree with their belief that one must accept Christ as one's savior, if not, you're going to hell.

    I can't accept that because That makes no sense to me. There is no way around it for me, it doesn't make sense.

    So why would a compassionate loving 'God' punish someone forever, for this? This is not logical. What it is is unjust and cruel.

    also, I believe Christ was an enlightened man on the order of a spiritual master, similar to Lao Tsu, Buddha, Mahavir, etc. Though I believe his teachings as written in the bible are not that trustworthy, though of his teachings break through.. After reading the Gospel of Thomas, that book makes more sense to me as to his true teachings, for the words are more sage-like.

    But, accepting Christ as my savior? I accept all sages as my savior, Christ, Buddha, Lao Tsu, Krishnamurti, and the modern Sadhguru. I like 'em all.

    What do you say, now?
     
  15. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    An atheist is anyone who doesn't believe in God. That means an atheist can hold any number of religious and superstitious beliefs, as long as those beliefs don't involve a God. 'Atheist' comes from the Greek 'a' (without) - theos (Gods). If your belief system is without Gods, then you are an atheist.

    The term 'atheist' does conjure up a negative connotation and atheists are less popular than Muslims and homosexuals. That is why publicly I go by the terms 'agnostic', 'pantheist', or 'non-religious.' You don't have to accept the atheist label even if your beliefs technically fall under atheism. Call yourself whatever pleases you.

    I think Jesus's reputation for enlightened teaching is overblown. He believed in extreme pacifism, extreme charity, and extreme love. My opinion is that its ok not to love some people, to fight back, and to not give most of your money to the poor. He was also the one who came up with the idea of only being saved through him. So you can thank him for this notion that all non-Christians go to hell.
     
  16. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    I see what you did there. I wonder if you do.
    Hell if I know, and hell if I care.
    Not my problem.
    That you find it deficient is no concern of mine. It's accurate all the same.
    Reject it all you like.
    There being only one, the possessive article serves only to confuse.
    Dunno why I would.
    Not that I speak for them, but I doubt it.
    Nothing different.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  17. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't "have a religion". In fact, in my view, having a religions is anti-thetical to being religious. I don't consider being religious to mere ceremonial acts, or following some rule book on how to act. For me, it's a quality, the quality of being religious is my focus. For me, being religious is to celebrate existence, say yes to existence ( to borrow words from others wiser than myself ), and being religious isn't about how to act, because how to act flows from the mental state, and the focus should be on enlightening oneself, and how one acts will follow naturally, no rule book needed, and.... not be concerned with "gotta believe this, or that, or God is going to send me to hell" kinda thing

    So, while I am light years from being a 'Christian', I believe it's okay to retain some vestige of religiosity, such as the belief in the spiritual, follow mysticism, that sort ot thing.
    I'm still a hippy at heart, born in '51. In my youth, I was a Scientologist, but when I reached 25 ( 1976 ) I formally abandoned that 'church'. That's another thread, entirely.
     
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  18. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, Jesus is not number one on my list. I'm not so sure what the 'bible' ascribes to jesus's teaching is trustworthy. There is a Gnostic gospel, called the Gospel Of Thomas, which is allegedly 114 quotes of Christ, no narrative, story, of any kind, just quotes of Christ. . I like that because if there were a story, as there is in the Bible, it's the words of some priest of antiquity projecting his (probably imperfect ) values into it, which might be driven by political agenda, control of flock, etc.,, and I"m not interested any anyone's words but that of Christ ( as a minor interest, I'm not a follower ). That is why I would tend to believe the Gospel Of Thomas is closer to his teaching, if not the real deal, as teachings of other sages have a certain mysticism I find lacking in the bible but present in the GOT. (other's mileage may vary)..
     
  19. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    "intelligence" is far too narrow a term to use when defining the a "god". earlier i used the term "will", but perhaps "intent" is more apt. in either case the definition still stands and has nothing to do with belief in either the soul or the paranormal. ghosts, esp and the like are not linked to any specific belief system or to theistic belief at all. the paranormal is just that, experiences outside of our understanding.

    the term "atheism" is entirely adequate, it just doesn't suit your intent. it would be far more honest to simply accept the label of non-religious atheist, distancing yourself from those who proselytize for their disbelief, and seek a workable, cohesive philosophy outside of religious dogma.

    as for the rest of your post - it seems more the puerile rantings of someone intent on fitting various religious and philosophical teachings into their own world view, discarding the uncomfortable, and taking a few swipes at traditional christian mores along the way. by the way, a savior (in the traditional religious sense) does not need you to "like" it, only to accept.
     
  20. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To be technical, he did say that collective spiritual energy is his 'god.'

    Not sure what the '_' mean though...
     
  21. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Sure you do. If its not as a club member of some organized preexisting religion then you have 'your' own version of religion. The only thing that changes is you are no longer a club member of some community religion. Everyone has some sort of world view, and strongly held beliefs that you have chosen to govern yourself, which is religion and you just expressed several of them earlier. Your religion is essential to and the result of the beliefs you chose to live your life by, especially with regard to the beliefs science cant touch.
    As far as what you are, I dont know of any classification thats a perfect fit.
    However be wary of bear traps the political pundits out here will lay before you.
    On this board be warned we have atheists that believe in G/god, a total contradiction.
    We also have those that combine atheism with agnosticism, another psuedo logic contradiction in terms.
    Atheists are stuck with naturalism, if its spiritual rest assured its not atheist.
    Its why science and those that choose science as their god will never sort out the spiritual world or understand deities or the constructs of religion.
    I can imagine what you are going through....One day you looked around the AI world and you said 'is that all their is', and that is why you dumped scientology.
    Atheism locks you in a mental cage, if science with its horrendous limitations cant prove it, it does not exist.
    You sense things that science cant explain, you know there is more and need to grow beyond the limitations of the cage.
    So now you are stuck between worlds.
    You know you are something, its not atheist, its not agnostic and its not theist. So now what?
    Personally I do not know of a good identifying label that really works for someone who acknowledges the spiritual but does not believe in any deity.
    The people here assign anything that sounds good because they still hang on to the old antiquated cultural traditions which 'assumed' to have religion means to have a 'deity', when in fact a deity is not the basis for religion as explained earlier.
    I will go out on a limb here, and based on what you talked about so far, another possible choice may be: https://www.history.com/topics/religion/buddhism
    Seems like it may be along the same flavor you are talking about.
    another one might be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheist_Quakers
    which leans more material.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  22. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ~ This could be you... ?

    ag·nos·tic

    /aɡˈnästik/
    noun
    1. a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.














      Similar:
     
  23. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    sure you can, many Buddhists do not believe in a God and believe in a afterlife

    all theist and atheist means is you do or do not believe in a God, does not mean you do or don't believe in a afterlife
     
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  24. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    false, unless one believes in a God, they are an atheist.... they could also be agnostic, but we are all born atheist

    theists are hard up to increase their numbers, Christians even count Mormon when they try to show how popular they are

    I am religious, just not a theist... I believe in an afterlife.... I do not believe in a God.... see how that works

    religious freedom includes the freedom to not believe in a God, great thing about living in a free country like the USA
     
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  25. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    failure in logic.
    facts are facts
    atheists lack belief God exists
    theists lack disbelief God exists
    fails LEM
     

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