Israel vows to pursue Syria operations until Iran leaves

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Iranian Monitor, May 6, 2020.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Math is not more relevant than Chess - with respect to the ideas I have been discussing - the impact of socialization and religious brainwashing ... and I am not talking about Jews just in Israel - I have been discussing Jewish socialization in general.
     
  2. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    I think you are a bit biased about chess. While the game actually has a history that is not unconnected to Iran (even though it originated in India, but then taken up and developed in Iran), the fact is that it wasn't played that much outside a few countries (and by a relatively small number of their population) for a very long time, including in Iran (at least, not by ANY sizable number of its people) for much of the time you are talking about. It is a game and trying to extrapolate too much from it is to me misguided.

    Academic olympiads, which involve many different subjects beyond just mathematics, represent the level of education and accomplishment of the cream of the crop of each country's students. And Iran's example if important and basically falsifies your theory, simply because Iran is pretty much the only country that is actually something like a "theocracy' politically. Yet, in a very short time, during the time after it became a theocracy, it found itself doing very well in the sciences and mathematics and more.

    Anyway, I have my own theories about these issues, but I just wanted you to know that regardless that I actually do credit "Jewish culture" in terms of the emphasis it places on education which (besides several other factors) accounts for the number of Jews who have excelled in many fields, do not assume that Israel is somehow sharing in the same level of distinction as Jews more generally. Or that Israel is producing better or more science and such than countries like Iran. Unlike Iran, which has produce everything while going through a maze of sanctions which intend to preclude it from access to even basic IP and equipment, all Israel needs to produce anything is $$ to start a project. Otherwise, it faces no restrictions and all the IP, all the underlying expertise, and everything else (including overt assistance) is available to it.
     
  3. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    With regard to population, while relevant, I should add that nations don't compete in academic Olympiads en masse! Instead, they send a certain number of their very top students. In fact, since Israel has been competing in the Math Olympiad longer than Iran, it has had more total participants in the Math Olympiad than Iran. Which means that it has had more opportunity to win more medals than Iran. But it has only won a fraction of the medals Iran has won. The same in physics, chemistry etc.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  4. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Focusing on chess and "Jews":

    1- Jews were predominately literate and lived in urban areas, which made more of them (proportionally) play the game than other communities even in Europe. In the developing world, on the other hand, until relatively recently, most of their populations were hardly in a position or circumstance to play chess! The game was played by a very small number of people representing a very small proportion of a population that was largely living in rural areas and hardly literate, much less involved in playing chess.

    2- Whatever other reasons explain the success of "Jews" in chess (not really al that relevant IMO), the case of Israel and chess is not all that exceptional even though they had the natural advantage of drawing from a population that was already excelling in the game. I don't know if there have been any world chess champions from Israel? I don't think so. At least, not to my knowledge.

    3- I have reviewed already Israel's rankings in chess. At the men senior level, they rank above Iran (not by all that much). At the senior women level, they rank below Iran. And the junior level in both men and women, they rank below Iran. They have done well over all for a small country, but not as well as some others (e.g., Azerbaijan, which incidentally is a predominately Shia Muslim country which historically was a part of Iran before the Russo-Persian wars in the 19th century).

    4- Two of the top 3 ranked junior chess players in the world are from Iran. Since @Giftedone is so obsessed with chess, here is actually a case of "one dude" but still a dude that I do like to mention, as besides being the #1 ranked junior chess player, he defeated the world chess champion recently:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/17/...magnus-carlsen-iran-chess-spt-intl/index.html
    Iranian teen shocks chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen to win $14,000 prize
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are having to work rather hard to explain the huge discrepancy in this particular area. First you moved the goal post to Math - I entertained your idea .. but Chess is a different Subject Matter. Do you play the game ? .. have you played it enough to understand the parallels between life and Chess ? ones that do not exist in math - in the same way.

    Good that there are some strong young Iranian Players - perhaps the one's that have shaken off the brainwashing ;)

    Whether my hypothesis is correct or not - The question on the table is the effect of sophisticated mind control - on certain cognitive function. We know that there is some impairment - that is evident from the creationist fundimentalist religious right in the USA - and through secular conditioning

    Quantifying that impairment is not easy.
     
  6. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    Well the truth is that hatred to Israel and USA is Iran's fuel.
    I hope the Persians will take over your country and kick our the fanatic Islamic Ayatullas and their revolutionary guards.
    The hatred in Iran to Israel , America and the free west is so ugly ... Blahhhhhh
     
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  7. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    1- if every kid was required to learn and compete in chess, then I would entertain the issue more seriously. Unlike going to school, which is mandatory, most kids may not play the game regularly at all. Those who do, often do it purely recreationally and not all that seriously. Those who get hooked on it and play it seriously for a while, may not continue to do so at all.

    2- I had learned chess growing up in my pre-teen years in Iran, played it occasionally. Then I didn't play chess at all for more than 30 years. Maybe once or twice during all that time. Until I came across a website, chess.com, and registered and got hooked on playing chess for a few years. I would play it quite often and did so for a year or two, even playing when I wasn't playing much attention to the game, as it had become a habit. I almost exclusively played what was called "Rapid" live chess and did so until 2012 -- and then stopped completely again. I stopped playing, in part (not only), because often I would face players from "Israel" -- and I had to either choose to compete to not? I played against them at times, but the general attitude in Iran (and I lived in Iran at the time) is that you shouldn't compete (even unofficially) against anyone carrying the flag for Israel. (A draft legislation in Iran, whose provisions include things I oppose, is now trying to make this attitude the law in Iran). Aborting a game each time I faced an Israeli was also considered not right based on the the rules of chess.com, so I simply stopped playing. I don't know if I was all that good playing chess anyway. My ELO ranking on the site was 1517, the highest rated player I beat had a rating of 1857, but I also lost quite a few games to lesser ranked players. Regardless, until this conversation made me signup again to see my stats, I had not even visited chess..com in ages in over 7 years.

    3- I went over with you a diverse enough set of subjects, not just math. Physics and chemistry as well. I could expand that to include other subjects. The real story is that under Islamic Republic of Iran, for whatever reason, Iran has seen an incredible rise in really smart kids doing very well in all facets of sciences and more. Before the revolution, Iran was like the 'rest of the gang' in the region, but today, Iran is among a very select group of countries when it comes to all sorts of scientific achievements. You don't hear about it as much because a good deal of 'brain washing' is going on in not just America, but all those places and among all groups which don't want to admit that an "Islamic theocracy" could oversee such a thing. Never mind, many of our young kids (but not all) do end up making the statistics that show Iran having a huge "brain drain" problem, with many immigrating to other countries given that the situation in Iran isn't the best to advance the careers of all of them.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  8. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The latest site these days is Lichess.org -- you can analyse your games using stockfish - a high rated engine. its really cool - I like 10 min over 5 min - gives you time for a few extra good thinks... You can watch high rated players duking it out - its quite interactive site.
    I am just under 2000 at the moment - trying to break on through to the other side - let me know if you get an account there .. its free.


    You are on a different page - but I will do my best to address your comments - even though you mostly avoided mine.

    Smart is a relative term - we all have gifts - some are good with their hands - some in language - some in Math and Physics (which would be me) Chemistry and Microbiology being my two main subjects - did a Math Minor though - did "Quantum Chemistry" in my 4th year -Schrodinger wave equations.. and so on.

    Some are good at reading people - the fellow who could just walk into a room and sense the crowd - these folks tend to rise in politics and - for some odd reason - management.

    I also did a bunch of Social Sciences - skipping the 1st year courses and taking selected others - Philosophy, History, Sociology, Psychology - and Anthropology which is kind of in between - so I am a bit of a Jack of all trades.

    If Iran is producing some good talent in math- good for them. You are misunderstanding the type of smarts I am referring to - perhaps your failing as a student is my failing as a teacher :) "plagerized from Gladiator"

    This is about smarts in the realm of social science - not about smarts in Math or Chemistry - and this does not mean every Jew will be better in this area - but I do think those who are not raised with extremist religious dogma - have a better probability of actualizing their potential in areas like Chess - and understanding human nature.

    These people could be in any country - and not just Jews. Smart people are everywhere .. not every Iranian takes the Religious Mythology seriously.
     
  9. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Quickly --
    1- As I said, I stopped playing chess a long time ago, after playing for a couple of years. I doubt I will be starting over again, as it took me away from other things that I feel require more of my time. Like posting here:)
    2- I don't think being 'smart' or not is the main issue. The main issue to me is making sure kids are raised with the proper educational ethic and opportunities, and then allowed and encouraged to think independently. Instead of simply following someone else by rot. Being dogmatic (whether religious or secular or otherwise), isn't good.
    3- Social sciences aren't either all that scientific nor free of political bias -- and chess isn't a part of those sciences anyway:) But one of the people, Ibn Khaldoun, credited as being founder of the social sciences, was one of the rare great Muslim thinkers who wasn't of Persian descent:) (while joking -- it is a fact that the greatest Muslim scholars and disproportionate number in a huge way came from the Persian speaking world, even though they wrote in Arabic which was the scholarly lingua franca of their times).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun
    One of Ibn Khaldoun's great works was this one, where he also had a commented about the contributions of different nations to learning and our limitations in judging some of those contributions:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah
    Besides the Arabs, of course, the Greeks (Alexander) also burned down the greatest city of the ancient world, Persepolis, including its great libraries.

    But nonetheless, on the Persians, Ibn Khaldun had this comment in particular:

     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  10. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    One of the pseudo 'social sciences', I should add, that takes the lessons of the natural sciences and tries to apply it to political agendas, is what is referred to as "Social Darwanism". Which then brings me to introducing my "western" and "westernized" audience here (people who have never been properly introduced to Iran), one of the people who pre-dated Darwin by more than 600 years. Who was a Persian (a polymath, who was a Shia theologian to boot:). Who not only developed the theory of evolution in his own way. But also had comments which reflect on what may be considered some of the earliest notions of "Social Darwanism".

    https://interestingengineering.com/theory-evolution-originally-created-muslim-scientist
    Theory of Evolution was Originally Created by a Muslim Scientist
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  11. Facts-602

    Facts-602 Banned

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    Do think scientific coming out of your party of the world plateaued because the spread of Islam? At one time in history, the Persians and neighboring cultures lead the way in science, math, and astronomy.
     
  12. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    No. I am not religious (in the theistic sense), but the sciences actually flourished during the Golden Age of Islam like never before. With many of those scholars contributing to it scholars of Persian decent. And even when the sciences began to stagnate elsewhere in the Muslim world earlier after the 10th century, they were still flourishing in Iran for several centuries more. Up to the 16th century, the level of scholarship in Iran was on par with the West. And it wasn't until the 18th century that you could truly say the West had begun to speed ahead of Iran.

    The stagnation you mention did eventually occur pf course, but while "religion' isn't irrelevant to understanding why, the real reason was more complicated. It had something to do with the fact that in Europe, you began to see the flourishing of learning in a very remarkable way. What Europe, as a whole, was producing, and then building on, was no longer comparable to what Iran (by itself basically) could produce. And once that happened, the 'scholars' in Iran (who weren't exposed to nor able to read the works being produced in the West until basically the 20th century) were left hopelessly behind in their actual education. By the 20th century, moreover, the distance between the West and the (middle) East had become too great for too many people to have the wherewithal to do more than engage in copy-cat emulation of what was being done elsewhere. The 'westernized universities' that replaced the older centers of learning in the Islamic world began producing parrots as opposed to genuine thinkers. While the traditional seminaries and institutions of learning where producing people whose curriculum had become too outdated to keep up.

    Right now, though, Iran is doing very well in the sciences and in education more generally. I have given the current state of affairs in Iran in some of my previous posts in this thread.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  13. Facts-602

    Facts-602 Banned

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    Good post, thanks for your effort, and input.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  14. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    That one time was indeed One time.
    Now the Iranian Ayatullas lead the way in hatred , Violence and Nuke's desire.
     
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  15. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Top 20 countries in the world by industrial designs and applications. You will note Iran came from no where on this list, to make it up in the chart, not merely among the top 20, but right now the top 5 behind only China, South Korea, USA and Japan.

    Here are videos showing similar trends.
    Math

    Physics

    Chemistry

    The top countries in the world in science production:
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Jews being driven out of Arab countries, should have had nothing to do with the Palestinians that were driven out, and that to me is the biggest mistake that Israel made. If Israel at that time, didn't use that as an argument so as not to compensate the Palestinians, the Palestinians would not have had any backing for their claims about being kicked out of their homes.
     
  17. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    An axis of resistance to what; Israel? How can the Syrian people rebuild their lives when they're being attacked by Israel because of Iran?

    The majority of people in Syria are Sunnis not Shias, and most Syrians whether they are Sunnis, Shias, Alawites, Christians etc., want to retain the secular and inclusive life style they had under Assad. Russia can assure them of this, while the only thing Iran can give them is more bombings by Israel, more theft of the oil wells by the US as it tries to break up Syria and form a Kurdish nation. As for Turkey and Saudi Arabia, all they can give Syria is sharia law and more beheadings of infidels.

    What you're advocating for Syria is a continuous state of war and a break up of their country. Do you really think it's what the Syrian people want?
     
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  18. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Axis of resistance to US/Israeli hegemony in the region specifically, but any foreign domination of the region more generally.

    Israel is not attacking Syria because of Iran. That is just an excuse to put additional blame and pressure in public opinion in Syria against Assad's alliance with Iran. Otherwise, as I mentioned, and as even Israelis would admit, there aren't more than a few hundred Iranians in Syria in total. What is getting bombed in Syria, typically, are Syrian factories and installations which are being set up with Iran's help to allow Syria to develop a semblance of military with Israel. Occasionally, the Israelis also bomb some militia units (composed of primarily non-Iranian fighters from places like Afghanistan), but that is not the real target of Israel as much as what I mentioned.


    The question of what form of government the people in Syria want is for them to decide on their own without anyone else talking for them. I have no problems with whatever choice they make and nor does Iran.
    I will let the government of Syria decide what it wants and not presume anything on its behalf. But lets be clear: technically, Syria is in a state of war with Israel. That technical fact is now a real fact, not because of Iran, but because Syria's armed forces and defenses have been rendered incapable of defending against Israeli and other foreign aggression. What Iran can do for Syria, if others didn't compound the problem (and here I include the Russians), is to help Syria develop its defenses to be able to deter Israel the same way Hezbollah deters Israel from any attacks against Lebanon. Only much more effectively.
     
  19. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The hatred towards Israel and the US can never be undone with a change in the Iranian government, but only with a change in the hearts of the Iranian people - and that's something's that's not easy, especially when their memories are packed with 70 years of continuous insults, threats, bullying, sanctions, etc. :oldman:
     
  20. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In that case, Israel is bombing the facilities so it won't become a threat. That's not going to stop you know, so Syria has two choices, one is bow to the Washington neo con think tanks and break up into smaller and weaker nations, or to keep the Russian forces there as protection.

    Right now Russia is sending more forces to Syria, and their bases are being enlarged. Russia needs ports on the Mediterranean which I suspect has to do with the Ottoman advances in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Greek waters. There is no way that Russia will allow the Mediterranean and Aegean to become an Ottoman Sea. Putin up until now has been able to control Erdogan, but with Washington's connivance in Libya, that control is starting to dissolve. WWIII is getting closer.

    The Syrian people made their choice with Assad. They want an all inclusive secular government.

    What you're ignoring is the welfare of the Syrian people. What you're advocating means more suffering and a break up of Syria - because that was Washington's original plans. Do you really think that if Russia was to pull out that Syria would survive intact?

    As for Lebanon, before the Palestinians entered, they didn't need protection from Israel. So Hezbollah is protecting them from a situation that wouldn't have existed if the Palestinians never entered the country. In other words, Iran is doing exactly the same thing that Washington does. It creates a situation where a country has no choice, but to need Iranian protection.
     
  21. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The exile of the 700,000 thousand wasn't connected to the on-going dispute with the Arabs
    in Palestine. At least, not to the Israelis. The seven nations that drove the Jews out did so
    because of the Palestinian war and refugee crisis.
    Most Arabs refused to stay in "occupied" land and sought to use their refugee status as a
    means to bring political pressure upon Israel to leave. This is why 700,000 Jewish exiles are
    no longer refugees but 700,000 Arabs remain "refugees." Meanwhile, those Arabs that stayed
    behind have a good standard of living - last month they refused an offer to be under West Bank
    control.
     
  22. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well now we know why Iran has been one of the world's terror states - they are
    blaming it on America. That's the Number One position of any old Leftie - blame
    America.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
  23. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Think my reply got lost.
    The "expulsion" of Jews from seven Muslim nations was a response to the Jewish Arab wars.
    Muslims will say the Jews "volunteered" to leave but the Palestinians were "evicted." It's more
    like other way around.
     
  24. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's interesting, but...
    it's not enough to have elements of Darwin's theory, you need to whole package for it to work.
    It's not just Muslim scholars who miss out because of this - plenty of Christian and Jewish
    scholars developed elements of a grand theory but failed to see the whole picture.
    Darwin didn't see humans as different to animals, humans ARE animals.
     
  25. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Let me quote from a famous 13th century Persian poet and philosopher, Rumi (who is still one of the best selling poets in the US and beyond), and add a few points along the way:
    Like Tusi, who developed the basic contours of the theory of evolution 600 years before Darwin, and had an idea that human beings are in the "middle of the evolutionary path" and are still a work in progress (in Tusi's view, achieved in this stage, not merely by biological evolution of the species but their intellectual and spiritual growth), but unlike another western philosopher also 600 years or so after him, Nietzche whose famous work Thus Spoke Zarathustra (named after the Iranian poet, Zoroaster), also saw the same but with a very different conception of the 'last man' and 'uberman', Rumi to viewed the path for humans as an evolutionary one. Where today's humans will one day evolve, not merely through biological evolution, but otherwise too, to become much more developed beings -- one who are no longer so attached to the material world and its treats and pleasures and temporal promises, but who pursue the one thing that is eternally true through faculties that go beyond merely reason but employ the one of the most powerful human emotions, love.
     

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