Quo vadis Europa?

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by LafayetteBis, May 13, 2020.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's time for some swift changes in country politics, particularly in the ex-communist countries of Eastern Europe who have not shaken their bad-habit of having rabid National Leaders that decide everything forever - like the "good ole days"' of communist Eastern Europe?

    Moreover, it is a moment for those people in particular to "grow up" as regards the elements of any truly plural democratic economy - that is, the plurality of power as expressed in the national and local voting. No one person or one party should control all the reigns of power!

    This West/East clivage in Europe came at the wrong time, but that is the fault of the western leaders who thought at the turn of the century that it was Now Or Never to make the entire Western Europe a True Democracy by expanding its borders after the fall of Russian orthodox communism.

    Nice idea, but it came up against Uncle Sam's Great Recession that put the breaks on the EU-economy in 2008 - from which Europe has yet to recover. But a "nation" of more than 440 million shoppers can do it IF they have the common desire to "do it".

    Otherwise there is a great chance that the Euro will fail and economies will drop back into the economic-pits of monetary-division of pre-EU times.

    The risk of it all coming apart is real. Very real ...

     
  2. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The idea of a single European republic is awfull. European cultures, way of thinking, political cultures, are way too different to allow to do that.

    There was the dream of many leaders to create an "european USA".

    But Europe is not the USA.

    It's logical that the EU is falling apart. It wasn't made to favour the well being of European people but to encourage free trade, it was not done to create deep friendship bonds between the people but to put them in concurrence.

    The EU is to free trade what USSR is to communism. It's falling apart, and if I fear the repercussions on common people of that fall, I won't regret that so called union that have done everything to create division between people.
     
  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, but it is in those characteristics the most important. Same kinds of people regardless of the language differences. All they want is a good life and and good-job with which to live it. And rid themselves of the incessant waring that had bothered them for centuries past.

    Churchill put it nicely even if he did not see GB as part of it and it seems he got that right about his people's foolhardiness! They are too blind to see the economic advantages, but that's the problem they just bought anew. It WILL come back quickly to haunt them.

    From here: European Integration
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
  4. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    thank you sir......thank you!!!
    It all started as a trade bloc and should have stayed as a trade bloc. Respect and understanding comes from mutually beneficial trade not ramming together disparate cultures in order to perpetuate some neo-political moralistic crusade.

    Well said.....Nice post!
     
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  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And another matter to make headlines (in some countries) is the manner in which Germany's highest court is mixing itself into matters that are not within its jurisdiction.

    From here: Analysis: The European Court of Justice's bitter spat with Germany's constitutional court - excerpt:

    Wow? Since when did the highest-court in any land within the EU have the right to vote a comment upon a subject that is NOT within its legal jurisdiction?

    Well, joke this (from the same article as I have noted above):

    'Nuff said? Methinks so ...
     
  6. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.
    The question is what can the EZB do. The EZB is not a EU organ, it is a organ of the Euro.
    Euro and EU are not the same, that was part of what the German Supreme Court was saying. The EZB is not part of the EU and there for the EU Supreme Court has no saying.
    I think it was about time, to clarify this.
     
  7. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is the "EZB" ... !?!

    And if you mean the ECB (European Central Bank), then you've got that dead-wrong as well. It sits in Frankfurt and its head is nominated by the EU Commission in Brussels; Also, if you think that the Brussels-based EU Commission is not part of the EU, then you live on some other planet ...

    PS: Neither is the FRB in the US a "private organ". It is part private and part public, with its Board of Governors an agency of the United States government.
     
  8. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Europäische ZentralBank....he's German....I think.....
     
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  9. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    Right now only Germany and the Netherlands are fully paying their share of the EU bill.

    I’d love to see the Netherlands do their own Brexit. The EU needs the Netherlands more than they need the EU.

    God only knows why Germany stays in!
     
  10. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Being a Euro member is awesome for the German export dominated economy.
    It keeps their currency undervalued and effectively means they can dump all their produce on foreign markets at a much lower price.

    It's really really good for them economically.
    As the EU's pay master they basically have the power of veto over everything it does, de facto.

    I can see why they stay in.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  11. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All these people salivating at this anticipation of the European Union's end may even be right that it will end, but they are wrong in it being a good thing. It's short-sighted. The world is getting tougher and tougher and in unity there is strength; when in the near future things get even tougher (e.g. with the rise of China as an imperialistic world power), people will regret it if they end up facing the contrary winds alone, as opposed to facing them as a strong union of 27 countries (we lost one, already). I am a dual citizen of one of the European Union countries and of the United States, I hold both an EU passport and an American passport, and I see with apprehension and sadness the nationalist and nativist push in both the US and the EU.
     
  12. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    ....strong?

    I like your optimism about the EU but when you have a group of disparate nations bound together by a incoherent political narrative predicated upon the stronger nations those not in such a strong position become ripe for suggestion. Using your thought process, China likes to play chess and when you attack something you don't take on the whole or the strongest you take on the smallest and the weakest first and work your way up. The EU will not take on China, should they wish to China will take on the EU a bit at a time - like Greece and China for example. You start with the weakest.
     
  13. James Knapp

    James Knapp Well-Known Member

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    I jump for joy with glee at the nationalist and nativist push in both the US and the EU. I was all for a trade union but a political union of Europe would ALWAYS lead to nationalism. We are too different and should celebrate our differences.
     
  14. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe that what you are saying reinforces the idea of union rather than undermines it. So that the weakest will be more defended (I'm here kind of coupling the EU and NATO as well although of course they don't completely overlap). And also, if you have an incoherent political narrative you might want to fix that instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
     
  15. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You jump for joy with glee? You might want to read up on European history and figure out what nationalism has caused. Hint: look particularly at the 20th century around 1914-1918 and 1939-1945.
     
  16. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    One would hope so I agree, however, I don't see that as being the case. For example my view of Aachen was that the French were trying to broke the Germans into bolstering the French version of "Europeanism" based on the Germans paying for their stored-up economic and social issues. In short it's about snouts in the German trough with the Germans prepared (at the moment) to allow the financial free for all based upon their historical dilemma of having caused the issues that brought about the need for this bastardised quasi-Kantian version of European cosmopolitanism.

    It's a narrative that is based upon conflicting indeed asymmetric desires; north European social values and economies versus southern European values and economies. The EU is just a secretariat; its in its infancy and hasn't yet figured out what it is or where its going or how to get there. It has no common values or social structure or ethos. Until it does it can have no coherent narrative to sell to its disparate peoples.
     
  17. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    Churchill was in favor of a "United States of Europe" in a speech at Zurich University, Switzerland, to make sure there is not another war. World wars were triggered by territorial squabbles on the continent and Britain can always stay out of it at a safe distance even after Brexit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020

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