The US is in Relative Decline against China

Yup. No doubt about it. The CHOICE is clear.

And when the choices are clearly defined for the US Public, we tend do pretty well in the elections!

 

That's a poll of people, this month in the aftermath of the virus. Our establishment, elected officials, and politicians would surely have a different polling result, if they were honest.

 

So your one of those love your enemy guys.

 

Oh, apologies, when you said “Half the country thinks China is the good guys in this, and Trump is the bad guy.” I thought you were referring to people — I didn’t realize you meant politicians...

And that poll result isn’t much different than the usual consensus against china, only a few points lower — but since you know the truth I guess we can ignore how people actually responded.

 

No never said that. I honestly don't know where you are going with this emotionalism.

 

There is what people think, there are the importance they place on it, then there is what the actual establishment that runs things does. I'm not sure what the value of your poll is since it's not going to be relevant in determining policy.

 

Yet we are here.
It wasn't by accident.

 

OK go on...

 

For?
I gave 2 reasons already.

 

Why can't we go to war with them? The U.S. is fully capable of destroying all their nuclear weapons on the ground before they can be launched.

 

If history show us something is that a lot of foolproof plan were flawed. I'm not sure risking the life of millions of people on what is only a bet is really a great thing to do.
Furthermore, there is a big unknown factor : at which point China infiltrated from an informatic point of view american infrastructure.

A war between China and USA wouldn't be only fought with classical weapons such gun, tanks or missiles but also massive informatic attacks.

What would happen for instance if a large part of the american electric and water network would be paralyzed for a few days ?

 

"Yet we are here" and "It wasn't by accident" are reasons?

Uhh OK

 

That sounds crazy.

 

Exactly. I think the time has long past where we could win a war with China.

 

Arms control experts wrote about it in Foreign Affairs magazine just a few years ago. I think the article is still online.

IIRC they said the U.S. could destroy the Chinese ICBMs while killing no more than a few hundred thousand Chinese.

 

Well the first obvious point is, why do you want to launch a nuclear attack against China?

Secondly, what is your move after you nuke them and they shut down the US power grid via hacking or EMP, and release a killer virus this time across the US?

Likely we would never recover. So again, what is your motivation for destroying the US just to pinch the Chinese?

 

Remove the political bias and it is easy to recognize that this is the "way of things."

A thousand years ago the Middle East, Turkey, and Persia constituted the economic center of the world.

Skip the dark ages and move forward 500 years and that center has moved into Western Europe.
Beginning 200 years later the center has started to shift West to the Americas with that shift completing within the last century.
Even in this country over the last 200 years the economic center has moved from the east coast to the west.
The economic center, which has no relationship to ideology, is currently shifting toward China and will continue its march into India, Russia and back to the Middle East.
Technology is only expediting the process.

Interestingly, as the center shifts, the old center will always look to war to defend its position.

 

We can but we won't. Trump has way to much money in businesses tied up in China.
https://qz.com/929553/here-are-all-...sident-owns-in-china-and-some-that-he-doesnt/

 

Hmmm so you are opposed to the United States trying to maintain it's position in the world?

 

Setting aside the obvious political bias, where is my post do I say that?

I am saying the economic center will shift toward China and that such a shift is inevitable. Smart money says to recognize the inevitable and play the long game to win.

How about an example.

Furniture makers in New England no longer wanted to deal with unions so they moved to the South where there were no unions and few safety regulations and big profits.
Realizing they could pay their employees 50 cents an hour instead of $10 they then decided to move to China, Philippines, and Malaysia for even bigger profits.
After learning the skills local businessmen opened their own plants making identical pieces and selling them for 1/3 the price.
Eventually driving the American business into Bankruptcy then buying the American business' name and reputation for pennies on the dollar.

Furniture, clothes, cars, computers...

If you believe in capitalism then you must understand the truth of this.
We will eventually go to war to protect our position. We will eventually lose.

It just is.

 

Well I think I said in the very first post that I thought our (meaning the US in particular and the West in general) position will decline relative to China, and it's inevitable process, so you are saying you agree then?

 

Yeah, it is inevitable.

To fail to recognize this is foolish.
To think it can be stopped is foolish.
To think, an an era of nuclear weapons, that "war" is a solution is REALLY stupid.

The smart money understands they dynamic and takes advantage of it.

Trying to stop it only speeds the process.

 

So translating your opinion into actually policy options, you would oppose any attempt by the Trump administration to restrict trade with China, and would prefer if the US returned to the pre-Trump era policies with China?

 

In the 1700's 1800's England tried to maintain their economic advantages by implementing tariffs, restricting the immigration of skilled tradesmen and criminalizing the transfer of knowledge.

Sound familiar?

Trump's actions will not slow the migration. In fact, it will serve to escalate its progress as China responds by turning its ability to produce quality merchandise and sell it well below US prices toward the rest of the world cutting us out of markets we now dominate. His attempts to slow the inevitable have turned American farmers into welfare queens as he's caused increases in the cost to import/export products as well as farm goods. Confrontation, over time, is always a losing proposition. He will force the Chinese to seek alternative sources and markets and when they do we will be cut out of those markets.

The rising tide paradigm works best. Encourage cross border investment that allows all markets to grow because, in doing so, maybe all the growth won't be in the US, but the rising global economic tide would raise the US boat as well.

 

Let me try this again: You oppose any attempt by the Trump administration to restrict trade with China, and would prefer if the US returned to the pre-Trump era policies with China?