Do You Support Capital Punishment? (Death For Certain Crimes)

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, May 22, 2020.

  1. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    There are some crimes so heinous and if done by people with no remorse and thus liable to commit murder again, life imprisonment can hurt innocent people on the outside and inside prison walls.

    I know that people can change in prison, but they can also choose to thrive on the evil that exists there.

    I remember Carla Tucker and at the end she understood there was a consequence for her actions.

    I also remember reading a story where a criminal in for life killed his cell mate by stabbing a thin piece of wire through the eye and into the brain. They originally thought death was from natural reasons.

    We had a case on The First 48 in Oklahoma where a young man was tortured to death by two individuals who showed absolutely no remorse. I sure wouldn't want to have to be a guard managing them or be their cell mate. Originally prosecutors asked for the death penalty but that changed .....perhaps they lacked something to make that happen.

    Ultimately our laws are designed to execute justice and to protect society. The state forgiving a cold murderer of the crime and showing mercy by not administering justice is not Biblical. Forgiveness has to do with the attitude of the person wronged.

    Prison ministries are wonderful by the way. They do great work.
     
  2. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    WillReadmore,

    I read all that very carefully. What you said highlights the fact that there are no
    quick, easy, and simple solutions to this issue and to all its ramifications.

    Society is caught between a "rock and a hard place" so to speak.

    (1) If society takes the Death Penalty route and just "kills them all"
    (murderers and other ultra-evil people) like some of the ancient
    barbaric peoples did --- then we have the following to live with:

    JAG Writes:
    Killing a human being means that we have given up on them. That
    we have concluded that they are not salvageable. That they are no
    more good. That they are now worthless. That they are human trash
    and not worth trying to help. We might not like the word "trash" but if
    we agree to kill a human being we are, for all practical purposes,
    treating them as if they are "trash." Is what I just wrote true or is it
    false? My view is that what I just wrote is obviously true.__JAG

    (2) if we go the Life Without Parole route we then have to face and
    solve the problems you mentioned in your post up there.

    "There is a LOT we can do to improve outcomes if we choose to
    have any interest in that."__WillReadmore


    A good line indeed.



    `
     
  3. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    CKW,

    Good points.

    Your post demonstrates the fact that there are reasonable arguments
    to support both sides of this issue. There are indeed some people
    out there that are, at present, animalistic and behave like wild crazed
    rabid animals. I certainly do not believe that every single human being
    on the planet is salvageable. There are even a few actual cannibals
    locked up in America's prisons for the criminally insane.

    Thanks for your contribution to the thread.

    PS
    Karla Fay Tucker was one that was truly evil. She killed two people with
    a pick axe and later said that she experienced sexual pleasure from killing
    them. But all is well that ends well --- and Karla Faye Tucker became, in
    prison, a true born again Christian who had a glowing testimony with
    everybody who knew her. She at least was given time to change and
    repent before the state of Texas killed her. So again there are no easy
    "cut and dried" solutions to this issue.
     
  4. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    To the thread:

    Just for your information: I am a WASP -- a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

    _________


    The state of Connecticut abolished the Death Penalty and their Supreme
    Court gave several reasons why they did. Here is one of their reasons:

    Start quote.
    It confronted a long, consistent record of unfairness:
    `
    "What has not changed is that, throughout every period of our state’s
    history, the death penalty has been imposed disproportionately on
    those whom society has marginalized socially, politically, and
    economically: people of color, the poor and uneducated, and
    unpopular immigrant and ethnic groups. It always has been
    easier for us to execute those we see as inferior or less
    intrinsically worthy."
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/a-strong-argument-against-capital-punishment
    End quote

    My question to the thread is Do you believe that the Connecticut
    Supreme Court spoke the truth up there? Do you disagree with
    what they wrote? If you do disagree, why do you disagree?


    `
     
  5. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    I know criminals who committed terrible crimes that in their despair and remorse after caught and facing life in prison, humbled themselves before God in prison, became born again Christian's and are thriving working for others behind prison walls.

    I feel comfortable that Tucker was reborn but only God knows for certain.
     
  6. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    CKW, I hear you. Thanks.
    If you have an interest this video Karla Faye Tucker Interview
    will warm your heart:
     
  7. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    JAG, there is always a substantial amount of time between conviction and execution. It is years, the number of years depending on which state the person is in. I think this is plenty of time to repent if they want to.

    We see things differently. What I want is justice for the victims and their families. I am far less concerned about "giving an opportunity" to convicted murderers to do this or do that. I want us as a society to value the lives of innocent victims so highly, that if you murder, you pay with your life. To my way of thinking, the justice system cheapens the lives and memories of the innocent victims when it preserves the lives of their murderers and takes care of them until they die of old age. This, in my opinion, is a miscarriage of justice.

    Seth
     
  8. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Seth,
    You make reasonable points.
    I am fully aware that there are reasonable arguments for the Death Penalty.
    Thanks for your contributions to this thread.
     
    Seth Bullock likes this.
  9. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Highly unlikely, but I understand your well wishes.

    When I was younger and began identifying as agnostic/atheist I was pretty militant and confrontational. That's quite normal for most atheists who came from a similar background as myself. However, as I've grown older, I've come to the realization that some people need their religion like others need their morning coffee.

    I have no disagreement with those folks. The ones I do have issues with are the very vocal evangelicals who want to infuse their religious beliefs into the public square, and those on internet forums who claim to speak with authority and twist science into pseudoscience to justify their beliefs. The way I see it is, if one's faith is truly strong, there is no need for justification to a non-believer. That's why it's called FAITH.


    Hence why I always have said in regards to this argument, if you want a true justice system, it begins with creating a truly just society.
     
  10. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Noted. /smile

    I am aware that a significant number of atheists in Thread World
    (on other forums) have reached that same conclusion --- about
    people needing their religion like they need their morning coffee.

    Regarding confrontational: Life is to short to experience the
    emotional unpleasantness of thread-confrontational-ism ---especially
    for those of us who have been on boards for a long time. Its just
    a waste of both time and the good-life.

    Noted.

    I have heard that same complaint on many forums. Some observations
    and personal opinions:

    (1) What goes on here in Thread World is not Real World. People sitting
    around pecking on keyboards regularly for years and years are not
    participating in Real World activities.

    (2) The "wars" between atheists and Christians in Thread World do not
    leave Thread World I'd say 99.9% if the time. All that keyboard pecking
    stays right here in Thread World and very soon gets buried in the maze
    jungle of old dead threads. All that thinking and typing-work buried and
    mostly forgotten. Nothing as boring as an very old thread.

    By the way, as an aside, I know one atheist that had over 55,000 posts
    on one forum and the forum crashed and had to be reset and all
    55,000 post were lost forever. I always thought that was rather sad
    for him anyway. I mean all that work and even the Internet lurkers
    and searchers could no longer access decades of his work. He did
    not save it, so it was gone for good.

    (3) Repetition. When you have read say 50 atheists-Christian thread
    wars you have read them all. Its just the "same old same old" over
    and over again and again and again. Both sides make the same points
    repeatedly over and over and over and seemingly never tire of doing that.
    What we do here inside Thread World is addictive. You know that! Its
    almost like a drug.

    (4) Regarding the Evangelicals: America has over 1300 mega-churches
    that have a weekly attendance of over 2000 people. The Roman Catholics
    have over 3000 churches with a weekly attendance of over 2000. So
    Christendom in America is alive and well. Here is where most atheists
    cannot wait to make the point that Christianity is losing ground in America.
    Then starts the discussion about the unreliability of polling. Pew Research
    is biased some will say. The results are only a snapshot of one small period
    of time --subject to drastic change anytime. Etc.

    (5) It is very unlikely that the atheists and the theists in America will ever get
    confrontational out there in Real World. As long as the "wars" stay here inside
    Thread World, then its all harmless keyboard pecking. Its largely entertainment.

    (6) Thread World is as low on the rung as one can get with regard to making an
    actual impact and difference in the political realities of Real World. I think the
    logic is that "Well at least something is better than absolutely nothing" --- so we
    keep on pecking away here inside Thread World. What? Trying to get people to
    "see it our way"? So how much success have you had with this? How much have
    I had? The standard answer is "Well, ya never know." /grin

    Aww, now you know that we Christians have a Biblical obligation to try to make
    converts to the Christian FAITH. /grin

    And most Christians believe we have a Biblical obligation to defend the faith ---
    thus William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantiga, etc

    Agreed.
    Good point, Lucifer.

    Thought For Today:
    "When sad, post.
    When glad, post.
    When neither, post.
    When mad. post.
    When bored, post.
    When confused, post.
    Never even consider not posting.
    I post, therefore I am."__JAG

    LOL


    `
     
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  11. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    I tend to look at my participation on threads akin to eating hot foods. I like the kick of heat and spice, but even I know my limits and have to have a gentle hand when trying some Carolina Reaper. [​IMG]




    Not completely true.

    The abortion issue is a perennial favorite that is always a crossroads between politics and religion, and as we have seen, both sides of that debate do protest in the real world, and violently. I wonder what impact Norma McCorvey's deathbed confession will have in that debate.

    And I have personally experienced religious bigotry because of my lack of faith.

    That is one of the things I miss about newsgroups. Those were the real hardcore forums without much oversight and anything and everything goes, but some of those newsgroups had some really brilliant posts. Alas, newsgroups are of a bygone era. I think the only one that may still be active is alt.religion.scientology.

    Yes, perfectly aware of that, and it is the reason why there are so many flame wars. The problem is that some religious posters do not seem to get that people by and large do not want to be proselytized. That's not a debate. That is pontificating.
     
  12. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Paul also said that you shouldn't help everyone.
     
  13. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    That won't happen. Solitary I mean. Not feasible and of course the same people against death penalty will be all worried about their mental health. There would be push to put them in general population.
     
  14. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    TWOG,
    Is it possible that you misunderstood him?
    What verse do you have in mind?
     
  15. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Sure it's feasible. I've worked up some prison designs for housing several hundred inmates in relatively comfortable solitary confinement. My designs even provide them with a small window in the roof of their cells for some light to shine in. I'm not cruel
     
  16. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Formerly, I was vehemently opposed to capital punishment. Today, I am for it, but only in cases that are ironclad meaning absolutely proof the person is guilty of the crimes for which he or she has been charged and incarcerated.
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I have a problem with this in that it's not the way our criminal justice system is set up.

    Our system is adversarial - it is about winning death.

    We provide a public defender for those who can't afford it, but our public defenders are MASSIVELY overburdened.

    We provide huge investigative support for the prosecution, but the defense is on its own. The prosecution is supposed to provide at least what it chooses to use, but the prosecution calls the shorts on what is looked at, and can be FAR less than cooperative with the team they are competing against.

    The defense has no investigative powers beyond what the defendant can afford.

    Through freedom of the press and modern communications there is plenty of room for affecting the jury pool - and the actual jury. So, there is room on both sides to affect the preconceptions of the jury.

    Is that all real? Well,, we have a long record of saving people from death row who have been falsely convicted - which certainly proves our system as it exists is far from perfect - being willing to kill the accused in cases where they are actually innocent.
     
  18. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree with you which is why I said the case would have to be ironclad (ie. one example another poster mentioned is a crime caught on camera).

    I only believe in capital punishment for rapists, murderers and child abusers. Again, there would have to be a strong case including DNA, proper search warrants, photographic evidence, etc.
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You don't agree with me if you are willing to ignore the numerous problems I pointed out. Our system just is't set up to do that. The primary point is that our system IS adversarial. It is NOT a cooperative investigation with truth as the objective.

    Also, rape and child abuse are certainly horrible and violent crimes, but drawing a line concernig what may be punished by death and what may NOT be punished by death is harder than that.

    Exactly when does child abuse become of death sentence seriousness? When is executing a child's parents the only solution? What's the objective in killing a rapist? How would we cosier all the issues of intoxication, PTSD, racism, mental deficits and other human illness that result in violence in our society? After all, these decisions will ALL be made by our adversarial system.

    But truthfully, for me it's more fundamental that all that and all the other major problems..

    I just don't believe we have any right to walk up to a person in chains and kill him.
     
  20. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. We both agree he judicial system has corruption and many false positives. After all, it is a FOR-PROFIT business. Their only goal is getting more money by head count and dependency on recidivism. That is a separate issue from capital punishment.

    Nevertheless, there are people who are dyed-in-the-wool criminals with no remorse or desire to change. Experts have already determined there is no real cure for deviant sexual predators. So, we should let them out and *hope* they don't touch our children? That's asinine.
     

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