Biden: America will be a beacon of hope for LGBTQ rights again

We can absolutely have the conversation, but as a campaign issue? Not this cycle I’m sorry to say.

 

I don't think it's wrong for you to talk about this. We can't all constantly talk about the coronavirus all the time. further talking about things with people who disagree with you help you understand your views and help them understand their views better.

So I hope you stay here and continue talking about it I do value your input.

 

Yes we can we have been more for a couple of days.

us discussing things regarding the coronavirus isn't going to change the coronavirus. It's just talk. The reason why people do this or the reason why I do it at least is to better understand my fellow man and hopefully be better understood by my fellow man.

 

I’m cool with that, but it’s kind of hard to focus with this big F’n gorilla in the room at the moment.

 

If you are LGBTQ and you are confused on who to vote for, you aint no real LGBTQ.

 

The subform is gay and lesbian rights. The title of it should tell you the focus.

If you have a hard time talking about this you don't have to talk about this. I don't I doubt anybody else here participating in the discussion does have a hard time talking about it. And to talk about topics not relating to gay and lesbian rights in this subform would be a violation of the rules.

 

Ok. I’ll go ahead and split from this thread. Take care.

 

We will be here once this thing passes. And I don't doubt your input will be valuable don't forget about us.

 

I appreciate your words and your apology, I sincerely do. Thank you. I realize that this is something that you firmly believe in, and I can see your side of the issue. I have been thinking about it off and on since this topic started. I am not 100% convinced that my stance is the correct one.

I will say this: The penalties that I want imposed on bigoted criminals who commit unjust assaults out of hate are even more harsh than what you want, so no one can say (not even Ronstar) that I have any sympathy for bigots who commit unjust assaults. The truth is, you and Ronstar have more sympathy for bigots than I do. I will expand on my view concerning criminals a bit further down in this post.

With the advent of the internet, I serendipitously came across a same-sex couple and had ongoing dialogue with them. This would have been in the late 80s or early 90s I believe, back when people first had the ability to have their own websites. They had kids - and soccer practices, and birthday parties, and vacations, and trials and tribulations, and it was apparent they all loved each other very much. They were just another middle class family living the American Dream. What Polydectes says, that we are all just humans, is absolutely true. We are all trying to find our way in the world, trying to find happiness, trying to raise our families as best we can. We want to see good in the world, we want to do our part, and we want others to do their part, and we want to be productive citizens. What difference does it make if we chose to seek our happiness and spend our lives with someone of the opposite sex, or with someone of the same sex? I can tell you it doesn't matter.

And this leads me to my stance on very harsh punishments for criminals. So here we have a law-abiding family (whether opposite sex or same sex), loving, caring, just trying to make their way through life and trying to find happiness, working hard, raising their kids, living the American dream, and then some uncaring evil criminal comes along and causes harm against those people, or kills one of the parents, or rapes one of the kids, or even if some idiot gets drunk and drives and causes a wreck which leaves those kids without parents, destroying their hopes and their dreams, and forever changing what was supposed to have been, I have no problem telling anyone that the sorry SOB who did that should be put down dead. My sympathies lie completely with that family and I have zero sympathy for criminals. ZERO.

You have probably heard this before, but there are way more good people in the United States than there are bigots. If a person lets those few bigots affect their life, if the bigots cause them to be automatically suspicious of everyone's intentions, if they are always seeking out bigots to confront, if they are constantly having to "prove" that they are equals, if they go around "constantly-in-peoples'-face-demanding-respect," from the "bad people," if they have to constantly have an "enemy" to fight to make their life complete, if they live life with a chip on their shoulder instead of just living life and seeking their own happiness and their own way in the world, well, the bigots have won. The bigot has stolen the happiness from the person, and the person has allowed it. The person lives every day with ill will in his heart, instead of seeking the love and compassion and wonder that exists in the world.

Yep, that same sex couple taught me a lot just by having some dialogue with me years ago. Life is good.

And again, thank you for your latest response to me.

 

Thank you for sharing. You story is very passionate and articulate and convincing. There may be more good people than bigots in the country but I'm not so sure about the Political forum. When someone says something that I see as bigoted or hateful, the attack dog in me comes out. I suppose that I am one of those people always seeking out a bigot to confront on the internet. It's my way of dealing with stress and the constraints of life in the real world. Hopefully, in the future , I will take the time to find out exactly where that person is coming from.

Having said that, I must say that I still disagree with the one size fits all approach to punishment for violent crime. Every case and every perpetrator is different. There are often mitigating factors that must be considered such as the rapist who was sexually abused as a child.

Our criminal justice system is intended to balance fairness and the opportunity for rehabilitation with punishment and retribution. Your draconian approach to crime is more suited to N. Korea or China than the USA. Lastly, I still think that there is a place for hate crime laws and harsher penalties for those who commit them for the reasons that I previously stated.

Thank you again for your insights and perspective. This is a rare case of an encounter that was turning ugly became productive and civil.

Stay in touch and have a good evening, and happy belated birthday

 

Thanks for the birthday wishes.

Concerning forums such as this one, it is very easy to look for confrontations, to give smart ass replies, to see others with different opinions as being adversaries that need to be beaten, we see it on these very pages every day. I admit that I all too often fall into that myself, and it is one of the reasons I don't post very often. The posters that I respect the most are the ones who make their points without having to go on the offensive. However, I suspect that for most of us, this forum is more of a hobby rather than a place we come to for serious debate. PF is a place to "have fun" by arguing with each other and getting in a few "gotchas" when we get the chance. Still, there is great food for thought here, there is exposure to differing ideas and ideologies, and occasionally something gets posted that changes my opinion of an issue, or at the very least, gives me better insight into the other side.

Back to the topic (I hope what I write isn't too far off-topic and that you find my view interesting): I think we are all genetically predisposed to be tribal, to side with and protect those who are similar to ourselves, and to dislike those who are not. Now, being "similar" all too often comes down to physical traits that really have no meaning, and that is where bigotry and biases come into play. The "tribe" that each of us feels we belong to is based on the way we see ourselves - our personal identities, our culture, who we are, what we do. And then I think it is only natural to side closely with that "tribe," and to look at other "tribes" as being different, as adversaries, as "enemies" - in fact, having common enemies further strengthens our commitment to our own tribe and boosts our self-esteem (because we are so much better than "them"). Understand that my use of the term "tribe" is very loose, as many of the "tribes" would more accurately be described simply as "groups of people who have similar ideas about life." And the tribes would often be mixtures of sub-tribes who have enough in common to form a larger tribe. Most of the tribes don't have secret handshakes, or tribal rituals, or emblems and symbols, or tribal meetings, or anything like that, although some of the narrowly focused tribes might have those things.

It has been said previously in this thread that "we are all just humans," and while true, there will never be a utopia where the only tribe that exists is the human tribe. I think human nature isn't going to allow that. There will always be conflicts of interest, conflicts of belief, and conflicts over resources, and to be honest, we do seem to need enemies, and that will preclude a utopian world.

So how one sees themselves in relation to the world will decide what tribe they belong to. Since you started this thread on Tuesday, I have had time to think about the topic as it progressed. I spend a lot of time in my garden doing various tasks, and the tasks are generally of such a simple nature that I can get in some good thinking and pondering of other things. So I was thinking about human nature and tribes, and while I had always known it, it came into my head that my tribe is the people that play by the rules, the citizens/families that are self-reliant, hard-working, law-abiding, responsible for themselves, just trying to live the American Dream. The ones who pay their taxes, who just want some happiness and some security and an opportunity for their children. They don't expect or require much from others, short of not interfering in their ability to obtain the wonderful lives they are seeking through their own honest efforts.

So that is my tribe. The color of their skin or their sexual orientation doesn't matter. If they are seeking the things I mentioned above, and they are doing their part, they are part of my tribe. And of course, I want my tribe to be protected against criminals, against anyone who interferes with the betterment of my tribe. Of course there are others who don't fit into the tribe, who belong to their own tribe- many have minimal impact so they are not particularly viewed as adversaries, they are just other tribes who are doing their own thing, and nothing wrong with that. And then, there are those who actively seek to harm my tribe, and those are the enemy. They would be the criminals, the murderers, the thieves, the rapists, those seeking to do harm, and those have no place in our society, in my opinion.

So depending on how one views themselves will dictate the tribe they belong to. If a person identifies themselves as a white supremacist first and foremost - their tribe is going to be narrower than it could be, and it will obviously exclude many from the tribe and thereby creates many "enemies." And the tribes that the white supremacist views as the enemy will in turn view the supremacists as the enemy, and rightfully so. And when the white supremacist tribe purposely proclaims their differences and their "superiority," it is no wonder that other tribes take exception and that animosity is generated. So it seems to me that we should all be seeking to belong to larger, more diverse tribes, rather than seeking to narrow our belonging.

Narrowly defining oneself into a small tribe has the affect of creating an "us against them" situation and society becomes less harmonious than it could be. I suppose that it could be said that a country's entire society should be the only tribe, but that seems unrealistic to me, there aren't many who could over-ride the genetic programming that leads us to look at life through a tribal lens, plus, there will always be those who aren't going to be a part of the tribe and are going to purposely cause harm to the tribe's members.

Back to the punishments, I think one's "tribal affiliation" affects how we view the punishment. For me, I want any criminal who harms one of my tribe to be punished just as harshly as a criminal who harms anyone else. I do see your point that a "hate" crime is different than the physical crime, and I do see your side of the issue. I would not campaign against those types of laws, although I do not agree with them, mostly because I find it disconcerting to punish someone for their thoughts, and yes, I realize that you don't see it as a "thought" crime.

As for North Korea, I suppose the difference is in the implementation - courts, innocent until proven guilty, etc. My view is that we are too soft on criminals, and being soft on crime is a poor deterrent to future crimes. I hold the lives, the dreams, the hopes, and the futures of my individual tribe members as sacred, and if a person is so callous, so uncaring, so sociopathic that they are willing to shatter those hopes and dreams, well, that person has sacrificed his right to be a part of this society. There is no correct or proper answer when it comes to determining the level of punishments for various crimes - only opinions. Some will have sympathy for criminals, others will have less sympathy.

Thanks for the conversation, hope you have a good week.

 

is how you choose to engage in sex really that important that you will support those who pander to your special interest?

 

Human rights is everyone's interest unless you don't care if the US becomes like China or N. Korea in that regard.

 

What rights are they currently deprived of and how will gropin Joe "fix" it?

 

It appears that you are not very well informed. Many states to not include LGBT people in their laws against discrimination, nor does the federal government. An LGBT person can be fired from a job for their sexual orientation or gender identity. They can be denied credit of housing. They can be discriminated against in public accommodations. YOU have the right to be free of such discrimination. YOU can be open and honest about your gender identity and sexual orientation and gender identity. YOU have the RIGHT to assume that none will mess with you because of who and what you are .THEY do not have that right and cannot be open in many cases .

As for what Joe would so about it. He can't change state laws but he may well push for Federal legislation to provide such protections. He can also revers Trump policies with executive or such as with discrimination against contractors working for the federal government .

And a motion has been filed with the SCOTUS to revisit the issue of same sex marriage in an attempt to reverse it. What side of that issue do you suppose that the Trump Justice Department would take as opposed to Biden's DOJ?

Any more questions ??

 

Just a statement, I dont think many (or even any) claims in your first paragraph are true.

 

you don't wan to think that thy are true. Maybe you just don't want to think

 

Now now, no need to get catty.

 

Thought for the day: Read up on the topic and do some research before spouting off. It goes a long way towards avoiding sounding stupid . Just saying.

If you think that my response was "catty" you need to grow a thicker skin. If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch

 

Can you show me examples of what you claimed are happening?

 

Absolutely! Here is a data base of state by state laws on the various issues that I mentioned and more

https://www.lambdalegal.org/

Read and learn if you're willing to

 

human rights, absolutely is important, how one has sex, nah. Isn't focusing on how you choose to have sex a little far fetched as a reason to support a candidate, especially when that candidate is simply pandering? I suggest that you research Joe Biden. If not, then be a good little minion and fall in line with other Democrat voters

 

It's very troubling to see someone who has reduced human relations to the way in which one has sex. You must lead a very sad and lonely life

 

Absolutely! Here is a data base of state by state laws on the various issues that I mentioned and more

https://www.lambdalegal.org/

Read and learn if you're willing to

 

huh?

what is sad is how you are single topic focused. Who cares that you are homosexual? Do you really think any Democrat gives a rats' behind ?

There are real issues and neither party seems to care to address them. Our debt continues to soar regardless of party. Our men and women in the military are still in the Middle East..why? Why do we send so much foreign aid when we have hungry and sick US citizens?
Why are independent minded people and small businesses targeted by bureaucrats with policy and procedure roadblocks ?

I can go on and on but then I read posts in this niche sub-section about the poor oppressed homosexuals when not one Constitutional Right is denied to you because you engage in a different sexual lifestyle. A reality check would be a good thing to get sometime.