Venezuelan military to escort Iranian oil tankers

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Giftedone, May 20, 2020.

  1. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    LOL In my world, you don't prove things by posting unsupported comments and opinions by 'internet warriors'.

    I have given you the US military's own assessments, war games, doctrine, and comments on the issue. I really have not given you Iran's assessments on the issue, but if you want, I can give you that too:)
     
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  2. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    Blockade runners? There is no blockade. And if there was, than it's currently illegal and an act of war by the US.
     
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  3. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't be in such a shambles if their big trading partner would have put a ban on trading with them. But they did in an attempt to make people vote in an other president. They also harbored terrorists who tried to make a coup. If the US would know the whereabouts of a head quarters where they planed to either kidnap or kill Donald, than they would have bombed the place extensively. But you know... double standards.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  4. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    We live in a world governed by the rules of the jungle, not any rule of law.

    Never mind that even "do as I do" would itself mean a huge concession in favor of the dominant powers, as it implies they get to set the rules in the first place. But since they can't even live by their own rules, the real rule is: do as I say, not do as I do.
     
  5. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    War games are not designed to be won, they are designed to test limits and uncover weaknesses.
     
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  6. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    WHAT? No blockade? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.
     
  7. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    They are designed for many different things. Including simulating an actual war and learning lessons from it.

    The lessons learned from those war games, the lessons learned from monitoring Iran's capabilities from the drills Iran regularly conducts in the Persian Gulf, and the lessons learned from the use of Iranian missiles in various theaters in recent years, all have made pretty clear to the US military leadership: in case of war with Iran, the US will need to keep its carriers and other major naval vessels out of Iran's "range". They still haven't quite figured out the actual 'range' IMO, but that basic lesson is clear.

    It was clear already when the Military Times wrote this article in 2019, talking to US military leaders and Pentagon officials:
    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2019/06/04/what-war-with-iran-could-look-like/
    It is even more clear today, after the strike against the Al Asad air base, causing one of the sources (CSIS) behind fallacious estimates when it came to the accuracy of Iran's missiles, to do finally concede the obvious.
    https://www.csis.org/analysis/uncomfortable-lessons-reassessing-irans-missile-attack
    Uncomfortable Lessons: Reassessing Iran’s Missile Attack
     
  8. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    Far more troubling that 2 countries trading is being considered to be "getting in the crosshairs" of Donald and asking to be attacked on this forum. So many war mongering fanatics.
     
  9. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    It's meant to intimidate your rival when you do it right at their border. Something the US does all the time with South Korea.
     
  10. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    And it has been explained to you how when the U.S. conducts war games, the U.S. side is NEVER supposed to win. Because our military forces would learn nothing from being victorious in war games. You only learn when everything goes wrong and you have to adapt and adjust your own tactics.
     
  11. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    What I needed to say, I have said, through not my own words even, but the words of the US military leaders, planners and experts. Repeat the same lines as often as you wish.

    In the meantime, beyond Iran, the real lesson from US war games is how poorly the US spends its money. Much of the spending is guided by special interest groups and the industries that seek a huge of piece of this pie. Aircraft carriers aren't entirely useless for force projection against 4th tier powers and those without any advanced anti-vessel capabilities, but the idea of building more and more of them to give more and more targets for US adversaries is absurd. But thankfully the absurdity prevails in American military expenditure.

    Similarly, many of the manned fighter aircraft in the US arsenal are simply repetitive. You don't need to replicate them in dozens of distinct platform designs which make for distinctions without much of a difference, each requiring their own supply chain, spare parts, and more, especially in an era when BVR (beyond visual range) capabilities make these different platforms only significant as it relates to how 'stealthy' they are and how well they can accommodate modern avionics and armaments. You aren't selling automobiles to the general public to need a Hyundai and Toyota to compete with your Ford and such in different marketing designs. What matters is the basic capabilities and functions that can be fit into any of these latest platforms. Yet, because of the nature of the US defense budget, you a lot of unnecessary duplication and resources that are wasted instead of being targeted better to building the most useful items.

    To be sure, there is no doubting that despite all the waste, the US has a very strong and capable military force -- the strongest by some margin in the world. But the main advantage the US enjoys against its main adversaries (especially those who have nukes) isn't its military power. Rather, it is America's control of the world's money supply and the fact that the US dollar, as the reserve currency and currency of international trade, gives the US a huge cushion to spend a lot more money than it ought to afford. And when you spend as much as the US spends, even with all the waste, you do end up with enough firepower. Not to do as much as some imagine here, but to do a lot of damage nonetheless.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  12. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Not one word of that is true.
     
  13. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    I am glad you don't think so:) Otherwise, if the US really did do what it does better, it would be no contest: the US outspends all of its real and imagined adversaries combined when it comes to its military budget.
     
  14. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    Whatever makes you feel good but be careful.
     
  15. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Most of the U.S. defense budget is NOT spent on weapons systems. Most of it goes for personnel costs and operations.

    The Chinese actually spend more annually on weapons systems.
     
  16. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    For once, please cite a source for what you claim. I can then treat it more seriously.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  17. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    For starters, the U.S. does not operate "dozens" of different manned fighter and bomber aircraft types. It operates three bomber types B-52H, B-1B and B-2A. It operates five fighter types the F-15, F-16, F/A-18, F-22, and F-35. Plus it operates three specialty types of combat aircraft that do not fit in the other categories AC-130, A-10C, and P-8 (antisubmarine warfare aircraft). That is eleven different types of combat aircraft only three of which are currently being acquired.
     
  18. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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  19. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    At least, for once, you had a source. Good start. I couldn't read it because of the paywall as I have apparently exceeded my allotment of free Bloomberg articles to read, but going by the headline, I will respond as follows:
    1- China has a lot of catching up to do and is competing with procurement and procurement budgets that have seen the US already spend trillions on its military over the years. A simple comparison that is focused on any annual budget in any given year is misleading.
    2- The current Chinese procurement expenditures will show their real difference, not today, but in the future. By that time, if that headline is correct, China will have overtaken the US as a military power the same way it has taken over from the US and others as a manufacturing power.
    3- What you will need to be very careful about, in general, are articles in the US which are written to favor more military procurement spending as they are often written to advance the brief by the military industries looking for their even greater piece of the pie.
     
  20. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't think given Bloomberg's political proclivities that his publication would have any kind of bias in favor of the U.S. military or military spending.
     
  21. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    You would be wrong, as the military industrial lobby has strong ties to both parties. Even if you consider Bloomberg a real Democrat. But you skipped over the main points in my response and focused on the more general caveat on these kind of articles.
     
  22. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Because you're trying to support your position by nitpicking.

    A bigger point would be the follows: The United States really has no idea how much the Chinese or Russians (or Iranians) actually spend on their military. While in the U.S. and most western democracies, military spending is endlessly discussed and debated in open public debate, in many countries around the world their military spending is considered basically a state secret.
     
  23. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it was 'nitpicking' at all.

    As for the US understanding of the military budgets of its adversaries, you might or might not be right:) In the case of Iran, I will say this: the US has an excellent idea about Iran's official military budget passed by Iran's parliament in a system that is pretty transparent. BUT: the real budget of the IRGC (they get a small budget from the government too) comes from its operation, indirect and more direct ownership, and control of numerous economic conglomerates in Iran with hundreds of billions of dollars of assets. Their annual budget, unlike the annual budget of Iran's regular armed forces, is not merely the budget that is allotted to them by the government. It is much higher, especially when it comes to research and development, military procurement and oversees operations.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course they could - The straits are a death trap.
     
  25. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Western reports are invariably a combination of news reports and editorializing propaganda. This report is no different. I will post the actual news items, with my own editorial comments where applicable.
    https://news.yahoo.com/venezuela-celebrates-docking-tanker-iran-154449864.html
    Venezuela celebrates docking of tanker with Iran gasoline
    The Venezuelan government and people do have something to celebrate. These fuel deliveries will take care of fuel badly needed by Venezuela for the next few weeks, while it allows Venezuela and Iran to work on restoring Venezuela's own fuel production. Once Venezuela's fuel production begins to increase, that is when it can declare itself winning.

    Venezuela might not have the best management and economic policies, but I doubt any country (including the US) would ever tolerate a 5th column openly ignoring election results and working with foreign governments to overthrow its government without clamping down on them. That they have not done so already is itself amazing.
    I hope the two countries will find a host of other avenues to expand their relations in a way that benefits both.
     

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