American billionaires got $434 billion richer during the pandemic

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Patricio Da Silva, May 25, 2020.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    In my view, a society whose economic policies are such that, in times of crisis, the superrich allowed to exploit the misery of the nation for private profit are policies that need to be repealed and replaced with a more just policy that shifts gains to the greater good, philanthropy, charity, infrastructure, programs to stimulate growth, help the needy, and so on.

    This is not to say that entrepreneurs should not be allowed fair compensation for their work, but when it comes to the superrich, they are in a special class, and thus the simpler condition of mid level entrepeneurs ( which is valid and just unless there is evidence of exploitation, gouging, etc ) earning a comfortable living from their efforts does not necessarily apply to the more complex economic and political dynamics of the superrich ( and that has to be defined, as well ).

    I don't know what law or laws should be repealed or created, but it should be just, and for the greater good. While that lofty goal is a worthwhile pursuit, not saying I know for sure exactly how to get there, and it's not a simple thing ( I would imagine it's not ) but the situation that allows it to happen, well, it ain't right, in my not-so-humble opinion.

    I suspect there is going to be some hounding and haranguing directed at me the gist of which will go something like "communist' "fascist" etc, because of the idea the right assumes I am suggesting wealth confiscation, and I expect it. In view of that probability, I am open to laws that compel the superrich to put forth to congress a 'plan of philanthropy for the benefit of Americans in the pandemic' so the gov doesn't have to outright tax them, ie., give them the opportunity to tell Americans how they are going to benefit America with their pandemic windfall. And, if they don't, then the gov taxes them to make better use of the money instead of a new super yacht for their nieces and nephews, etc.

    So, I invite discussion on this:

    1. Is this a good thing?
    2. If not, what should the lawmakers do to correct it?
    3. or should the government just allow it to happen, even if it is not a good thing?
    4. Is the article accurate? If not, to what degree, what context is missing?

    NOTE: On #4, vacuous claims such as "liberal bias" are not merit worthy arguments if that is all that stated in the rebuttal, or if they are introduced, a supporting path of logic, reason, including data that demonstrates how bias distorts the story such that the facts are misleading or outright false, must be included in the allegation. In other words, rebuttals that merely state 'bias' or 'tds" etc, are not merit worthy arguments without supporting information to back it up.

     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  2. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    On the 'wealth confiscation' aspect, I wanted to add this, which the 15 minute limitation didn't allow me to add:

    I am open to forcing philanthropy on super windfalls arising from profits of pandemics. So, the idea basically is to compel the supperrich to write up a plan of what they are going to do with the windfall that will benefit American and Americans, and that plan submitted to Congress and approved by them. This has ramifications, of course, and they can be dealt wit. If they do not, nor do they do anythingi with the windfall that is philanthropic, then a windfall profits tax should be imposed.
     
  3. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don’t care about other people’s income. As long as I’m paid a fair rate based on my ability, I’m happy.

    And I don’t want any wealth redistribution leftist accusing me of making “too much money” and trying to get their grubby hands on my paycheck.
     
  4. TurnerAshby

    TurnerAshby Well-Known Member

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    Interesting topic!

    I'm not sure how related this is but I have noticed that the businesses that seemed to have monopolies because unlike the mom and pop businesses were too big to close during the shutdowns were the same who our worst offenders of using Chinese outsourcing. So our federal government gave us all stimulus which helped the type of businesses that go against the america first motto and now there seems to be hesitation to allow those small businesses the same chance to collect stimulus funds.
     
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  5. apexofpurple

    apexofpurple Well-Known Member

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    Balance is the key to everything. We have countless millions of people living paycheck to paycheck and look what just happened. The root of that problem there has to change and it starts with placing higher taxes on people who could pay said taxes with just a single month's interest on their net worth, it continues with responsible management of the funds (not pissing it away on cronie kickback schemes), and it ends when we no longer have tens of millions of our citizens sit on the verge of homelessness and starvation simply because they had to go two weeks without an income. I don't think we have to come after the paychecks of 95% of Americans to do it either, but the remaining 5% ...time to let go of some of that needless greed.
     
  6. TurnerAshby

    TurnerAshby Well-Known Member

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    Idk exactly how the government should do it as taxes/subsidies aren't really my area of expertise but I believe more should be done to incentivize people to use small businesses. I'm not for making the rich write up plans what to do with their money but to more level the playing field in a way that benefits Americans.
     
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  7. MissingMayor

    MissingMayor Well-Known Member

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    This is a great topic. We basically gave trillions of dollars to corporations who exist on paper and send their profits to shareholders who wouldn't have lost a penny. That money didn't prevent the corporations from laying off people, shutting down stores, or ending services. Basically we gave them federal money to do absolutely nothing different then they would have otherwise.

    Yet the politicians will fight tooth and nail to limit food stamps and cut social security and medicaid benefits.
     
  8. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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    I’m worth more today then. I was when the Chinese virus hit.

    maybe you should have listen so some posters telling you to buy cheap stock.
     
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  9. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why do you assume that the wealth transfer is due to "exploitation"? What was traded in exchange for 434 billion dollars? Did people trade it unwillingly? Do you expect people to return the goods and services they received in exchange for their money back? Or are we just supposed to assume that a seller is the only person who wins in the transaction because they have cash in hand and the buyer possibly only has the memory of a product they just consumed?
     
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  10. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I guess it's true when the left said to never let a crisis go to waste.
     
  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    OT
     
  12. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    See what killing small business gets you?
    See what trillions pouring into the banks via the FED can do for you?
     
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  13. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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    Nope it’s what the topic of this t he was is about making wealth during the Chinese virus
     
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  14. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    The FED balance sheet expanding by 3 trillion had a lot to do with it

    Shutting down small businesses had a little to do with it too
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  15. Rush_is_Right

    Rush_is_Right Well-Known Member

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    That someone made a million dollars today affects me (or you) how?
     
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  16. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, I'd like the "eat the rich" crowd to understand an even more fundamental aspect of trade. They are tracking dollars as if that's the only aspect of the trade that has any value. But that's only half the equation. The other side contains the value of the thing that was purchased with those dollars. It's difficult to measure that, so they just ignore it: to the ruin of every command economy ever.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  17. TurnerAshby

    TurnerAshby Well-Known Member

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    Giving more opportunities to large corporations who are the worst at using Chinese suppliers (walmart) than local small businesses causes issues for all of us imo
     
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  18. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    People are entitled to wealth and comfort, but wealth that is on par with small nations, you are not entitled to that ( in the progressive's view). The reason is that money is power, and the kind of money that's in the hands of a very view gives them the power of many small nations, and that's too much unaccountable power for an individual to have.

    You might be currently entitled to that kind of power, but if progressives ever rise to power, changes will be made on upper limits to wealth.
     
  19. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    You are reducing wealth accrual to a simple libertarian, work hard, provide a product or service, make an earned profit model. Simple transactionalistic thinking.

    That's workable up to a certain economic threshold, but when you get in the multibillionaire range, applying that simple thinking becomes 'simplistic'.

    "Simplistic" means attempting to simplify something beyond the point that it can be actually simplifed, and, in so doing, you wind up with something that is no longer workable, viable, or true.

    There are many books on this subject, and articles, here are a few:

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/12/how-the-rich-use-the-government-to-enrich-themselves.html

    A study of this book explains how the rich use the government to enrich themselves.

    https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-captured-economy-9780190627768?cc=us&lang=en&

    https://www-cdn.oxfam.org/s3fs-publ...conomy-one-percent-tax-havens-180116-en_0.pdf

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-american-economy-is-rigged/
    .
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  20. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I reduced it to a question you avoided answering. If it's a simple question, it should have a simple answer. You assumed that the wealth transfer took place as a result of exploitation. That's are far more simplistic view than mine, for sure. Back it up with facts. What's the other side of the equation look like? What did consumers get for that 434 billion?

    Also, I know all about regulatory capture, and I chuckle inside when people suggest that more regulation is the solution...
     
  21. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The top two people mentioned in your article, Bezos and Zuckerberg, happen to own the the largest online storefront, and social media site respectively at a time when people are mandated by the government to shop from home and socialize online. Clearly their sales increased at that time. What number should their worth have increased by in your estimation? What's the acceptable amount that wouldn't trip your exploitation alarm?
     
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  22. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    You wrote:
    maybe you should have listen so some posters telling you to buy cheap stock.

    You are implying my OP is about me. It is not.

    the OP refers a society that allows billionaires windfall profits during pandemics and the OP is about debating this, is it right, wrong, should we do something about it, etc.

    The OP has nothing to do with me, or you, or any single non-billionaire individual's ability to improve their financial position during the pandemic.

    Therefore, no amount of listening to some posters advising me to purchase cheap stock (per your comment) has anything to do with the subject at debate in the OP.

    In other words, the OP is NOT a 'how to profit the pandemic' thread.

    Therefore, OT.

    .
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  23. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again you're only focused on the wealth they earned, with no attention at all to the value they produce in exchange for that wealth. If you complain that they have more wealth than a country, and ignore that they also produce more than that same country you find yourself in a big economic problem when you take that money and use it in ways that don't produce that same amount of value.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  24. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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    Where they not allowed to buy stock when. It was cheap?

    why is it ok for me to make money now and not billionaires?
     
  25. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, I'm talking in a general since, I would never accuse ALL billionaires. IN fact, I had a sentence in the original OP ( but I deleted it ) that I would judge billionaire on case by case business.

    You are assuming the 434 billion was the direct result of profits from services rendered or products shipped.

    A portion of it is, but a portion of it is not. AS to specifics, a review of the material I linked to will further illuminate this

    If you want an anecdotal example.

    Say a billionaire corporation has 100,000 employees, and 20,000 employees are paid not enough to purchase food ( and pay other bills ).

    so, those employees who were tired of choosing between food and other bills, applied for foodstamps. This provided them with enough to eat and pay their bills.

    Foodstamps are not welfare for the underpaid, they are welfare to corporations because they are using government assistance to help pay what they should have paid their employees in the first place. But, the cost to society is even greater because the foodstamp assistance program has a government agency to administer it. Now, in the above example, Im not talking about the unemployed, I'm talking about the working poor.

    This is one tiny anecdotal example in a sea of examples that requires books on the subject to deal with, hence my linking to a few sources.

    If you don't think that example is a true example, it is.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/a...the-main-reason-people-depend-on-food-stamps/

    And, i suspect Walmart is not the only company doing this, noting that here we are only talking about foodstamps, there are multitudes of ways the superrich manipulate the economy, including manipulating government, to their advantage which they would not be able to do but for their vast wealth and power.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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