How we should treat China

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by pjohns, May 29, 2020.

  1. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    A trade deficit is part of the current account deficit. It's not physical money, that other guy seems to be thinking of it as if it's like a loan from a bank. It isn't.

    A while back we drove the value of the dollar down. That cut the value of the dollars foreigners were holding maybe by half. I don't remember the specifics.

    So, this is purely hypothetical, because we won't do it; but if we were to cut off all trade with China (we can't) the logical thing for China to do is dump all their dollars. That would hurt them badly, but it would hurt us even more, and the dollar would prob lose reserve status.

    People in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.
     
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  2. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    Why should the comparison be between average Chinese workers wages and American?
    Why not Romanian?
    Or Panamanian?
    Or Indian?
    Or Brazilian?
    Or British?
     
  3. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    On the other hand..... .many of those Chinese accounts can be frozen...... preventing those USA petro-dollars from being dumped.

    The case against China is getting more and more well understood by vastly higher numbers of people each week now.

    It looks to me as if China was deliberately dumping Fentanyl.... and they knew full well that doing so could eventually lead to civil unrest in the USA.

     
  4. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    They could dump about a trillion, and there isn't a damn thing we could do about it.

    You're not playing with dynamite, you're playing with financial nuclear weapons.
     
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  5. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    I'm doing this separately.

    If you want China to crack down on illegal drugs and a bunch of other things, you need to have a relationship with them.

    You can't get all emo and then expect them to bow and scrape and then leap to do your bidding.

    You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
     
  6. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    you do know drug issue is due to too many demands here. Fentanyl was easily access in china, some pharmacy selling online and over the counter, but there is no issues there in China cause ppl over there has much less drug abuse issue compare to here, over here kids/addict want get high so the demand just much higher.

    also there are even more US investment in China, then china investment in US. so sure we can hurt them, but they can hurt us too, just like in the trade war.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
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  7. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    What, exactly, does "a very direct answer" have to do with the tuquoque fallacy?

    That fallacy means "you, too"; or "you're another."

    Well, Francois Murphy and Arshad Mohammed said that Iran's "breaches have eaten into the breakout time slightly, but estimates of the current breakout time vary. Many diplomats and nuclear experts also believe the starting point of one year is a conservative estimate."

    That was published on January 17, 2020: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ran-to-producing-a-nuclear-bomb-idUSKBN1ZG22P

    If Iran could purchase what it needs from other (European) countries, then unilateral sanctions really would be ineffective.

    Surely you must understand this.

    Please be civil.

    At least, try.




    Donald Trump is thin-skinned, and easily angered; we should all know that by now.

    But this matter occurred last winter; and it is almost summer now.

    Have you just been hiding this in your back pocket, ready to pull it out whenever it seemed most damaging?

    (In any case, I am truly not a reflexive apologist for Donald Trump--or for anyone else, for that matter. So your rant here is of very limited value.)

    And precisely how, according to your belief system, have we been "cutting back on education"?

    Or "cutting back on...incentives for research"?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  8. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    Well, uh, I think that is precisely what we are talking about.

    Isn't it?
     
  9. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    tu quoque
    You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.
    Pronounced too-kwo-kwee. Literally translating as 'you too' this fallacy is also known as the appeal to hypocrisy. It is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off someone having to defend their argument, and instead shifts the focus back on to the person making the criticism.

    Example: Nicole identified that Hannah had committed a logical fallacy, but instead of addressing the substance of her claim, Hannah accused Nicole of committing a fallacy earlier on in the conversation.

    I did not shift anything back to you. I gave you a direct answer.


    Let me just say that I stand foursquare against the Iran Nuke deal (a.k.a. the JCPOA). (Iran's breakout time is now reported to be just a matter of weeks; after which, Iran would surely design, manufacture, or assemble the bomb’s components--which would not take long, according to what I have read).

    Do you see any conflict in your 2 statements?





    Well yes. Yes they would. That's why Trump is threatening Europe.



    You fail to answer the question. What do you call this form of government you are proposing?



    You ask for an example I gave you one. I think I'm about done being your tutor.




    Under the Trump administration, student loan income-based repayment options would be narrowed down into one. Loan forgiveness would be eliminated. All subsidized loans would be eliminated. The lifetime borrowing limits for Parent and Graduate PLUS programs would be capped, curbing the burden for certain borrowers.Mar 2, 2020[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  10. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    Errr no.
    The thread is asking about how China should be treated.
    It developed into something about Chinese workers being slaves (for goodness sake!).
    Your definition of slavery seems to be about whether Chinese workers are paid as much as American workers. By that definition the majority of workers on the planet are slaves.
     
  11. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    I was responding to your post, which stated: "The US with it's racial problems forcing the end to South Africa's segregation?
    You gotta be kidding. :)
    While I'm sympathetic with their plight. No. I don't think we are are arbiters in such matters."
    [Bold in original]

    You may not have shifted something back to me, personally, but you shifted it back to the US--you claimed that this country (which I love, by the way) is not in any moral position to sanction another country.

    That certainly qualifies as tuquoque reasoning.

    Let me just say that I stand foursquare against the Iran Nuke deal (a.k.a. the JCPOA). (Iran's breakout time is now reported to be just a matter of weeks; after which, Iran would surely design, manufacture, or assemble the bomb’s components--which would not take long, according to what I have read).

    Of course not.

    Should I?


    Sanctions are entirely ineffective--as I have pointed out previously--if they are unilateral.

    So either Europe is with us, or it is against us.

    There is simply no middle ground here.

    And why should we not sanction those who are very much against us?

    I call it Americanism.

    I am not asking for anyone to "tutor" me.

    So please do not try.

    To take just one of these: Why, exactly, should loans be "forgiven"? (Just try taking out a loan at your local bank or credit union--and then asking if they would be okay with you never repaying it. See how far that will get you.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  12. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    You mentioned "Romania"; "Panama"; "India"; "Brazil"; and Brit[ain]," in defense of your argument.

    These five, all combined, manufacture only a tiny fraction of what China does; so they are (quite understandably) under the radar.

    (By the way, I have no idea what sort of wages the people in these countries make--do you?--but I rather doubt that in Britain, they are slave wages. I cannot say about the others.)
     
  13. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    You missed the direct response... twice.

    Yes.
    It seems like you forgot all about your second quote. Why? Could it be because it is in conflict with the one you just posted. Yep. I think so.



    It's simple really. Because they are right. When your best friend tries to help you, you shouldn't kick him in the ....




    Try again. That's not a form of economics.



    I am not asking for anyone to "tutor" me.

    So please do not try.



    It's working for Spanky's stimulus loans to business right now.
    But the real question that you just ignored (again) is that has helped improve education.
     
  14. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    I have attempted to form a tenuous relationship between what people earn and the cost of living.
    The cost of living in America is higher than the cost of living in China, hence the difference in wages.
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is a huge middle ground - and numerous alternatives

    This black vs white paradigm - "with us or against us" - that you present was the path to our downfall - which is one good reason why we should not sanction the EU.

    Indeed Trump did make this move - threatening not just the EU but any nation who violated his unilateral sanctions with the "Nuclear Option" - threatening to block banks and corporations out of the international system of payments.

    This action forced compliance "with us" on the surface - but, resulted in the nations of the world moving against us because we violated the sovereignty of those nations - and no one likes that.

    It was a bold move that Trump made on the geopolitical chessboard- one that turned out to be a big blunder.
     
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  16. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    google wages by countries, plenty those around. the reason why many textile and other low tech moving out of china is because, place like india/vietnam/phillippine/africa nations etc now has lower wages compare to china.
     
  17. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Stop squabbling and pay attention to what your government is doing:

    Washington creates transatlantic parliamentary group against Beijing

    Senators Marco Rubio (Florida-R) and Bob Menendez (New Jersey-D) have launched a parliamentary group spanning both sides of the Atlantic, the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China (IPAC).

    It brings together over a hundred representatives from 12 countries (United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, Czech Republic and Lithuania), in addition to members of the European Parliament. The most highly represented are the Germans, Australians, Canadians and British.

    The project promoted by this decidedly anti-Chinese pressure group was presented at the Munich Security Conference. Its advisory committee includes opponents from Hong Kong and the former Chinese policy adviser of Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

    IPAC will be sure to relay the new anti-Chinese policy of the US through the national and European parliaments.

    https://www.voltairenet.org/article210205.html
    ------
    Now things are getting serious! Trump got humiliated with the handling of Covid19 virus and is taking revenge.
    Besides blocking China's new Silk Roads, dishing out sanctions, blocking Huwei... what else, do you think, this new alliance will come up with?
    I'm anxious to see Russia's reaction to this rather sudden and massive front against China. Sadly, Germany has to be part of it!! Even sadder, Canada has joined, too!!
     
  18. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    There has always been conflict with Oceania so understand this, there is conflict with Eurasia as Oceania has always been our friend, lets hate Ociana though as Eurasia are the good guys.
     
  19. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    The fancy name for this is the petitio principii fallacy. But simple question begging will do.

    By assuming that the Europeans are "right" about this matter, you have assumed, in your premise, what belongs exclusively in the conclusion (if we were to have reason to conclude that).

    Even if you are correct, why would we call it a mere "loan" if we do not expect it to ever be paid back?

    If this is such a good use of money--societally--that it really need not be paid back, then why should we not simply distribute it (just as we did with the $1,200 checks--or $2,400, for married people), with no pretense of wanting the money back?

    That seems much more straightforward to me.

    Would you not agree?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  20. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    I do not doubt that the cost of living in the US (which actually varies considerably among regions) is higher than the cost of living in China.

    But is it really so much higher as to mean that the Chinese people can attain a similar standard of living, with wages that much lower?
     
  21. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    And do you, then, imagine that low wages--especially extremely low wages--are basically good, simply because they keep down the retail price of any product?
     
  22. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I would agree. We do it with primary education, why not for voluntary secondary?
     
  23. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    Well, that is a far more honest and straightforward approach than to call it a mere "loan," and then never ask for the money to be repaid.
     
  24. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    Hey. I didn't make the ruling. I just posted it to answer your question.
     
  25. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Fake News.

    If Lying Outlaw China escalates it's ongoing aggression against us via a $T dump of US treasuries, it would be aimed at hurting the value of US Treasuries, causing yields to spike.

    China would be blasting it's own foot in a "rip your nose off" strategy.

    It would cost them 2/3rds of their foreign reserves that Beijing uses to defend its currency and maintain financial stability.

    And what is Lying Outlaw China going to do with all its excess cash? The biggest economies are US, China, Japan and Germany. Redeploying the money into Japanese and German debt wouldn't be fun, both nations' 10-year bonds are at negative yields.

    Holding onto the cash would cause Lying Outlaw China's own currency to strengthen too much, which is deflationary. Lying Outlaw China deflating would expose more bad loan problems at its banks. That's the last thing they need.

    Lying Outlaw China dumping Treasuries risks destabilizing global financial markets at a time when their alternative trading partners are already struggling. As Lying Outlaw China is destroying it's trade with the US, it needs a stable economic environment for the rest of their exports.

    Further, Lying Outlaw China doesn't even have the power to spike US yields. Lying Outlaw China sold $600 billion of US Treasuries between mid-2014 and late 2016 and yet yields went down.

    US debt is the safest asset on the planet. There's ample demand — especially during recent market turmoil — from other foreign buyers, large life insurance companies, pension funds and big banks. That demand would only increase if China spooked investors by dumping US Treasuries. During scary times, cash floods INTO US debt.

    A modest increase in US Treasury yields would prove temporary. Higher yields would only attract more buyers, driving rates lower.
    Lying Outlaw China dumping Treasuries could panic global markets without hurting the US, but it would hurt Lying Outlaw China's already dismal reputation as a sane trading partner.

    LYING OUTLAW CHINA IS ON THE BALLOT IN 2020.
    It worked out great for Hunter Biden.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020

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